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Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? Earthwork England

Submitted by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005  Page Views: 13584

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Country: England Type: Misc. Earthwork

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Wansdyke
Wansdyke submitted by Thorgrim : Section of the Wansdyke where it crosses the road between Fyfield and Alton Priors. Wansdyke stretches for 45 miles from Bristol to Marlborough and can be walked for much of the way. As it is still quite high, it is free from 4x4 off road vandalism and can be a much pleasanter walk than the unfortunate and much abused Ridgeway. (Vote or comment on this photo)
Offa’s Dyke is a ditch and rampart structures running north to south dividing roughly what is now England from what is now Wales. (Of course it now meanders in and out of the two kingdoms). It takes its name from the Mercian Angle king who was said to have constructed it in the 8th century to keep the Welsh (Britons) out of the newly acquired England (Anglia). If this is the case then why...

a) have there been no Anglo-Saxon finds at its base levels?
b) is it the only Anglo-Saxon structure of its kind? (It's still unclear as to who constructed Wansdyke near Bristol)
c) is it never mentioned in the 'Anglo-Saxon Chronicles'?

The alternative theory behind the construction of this 150 mile long work was put forward by my colleague Steve Blake and his co-author Scott Lloyd in their book 'The Keys to Avalon' and it goes something like this...

It was whilst writing their book and researching Offa’s Dyke that they came across the writings of a 6th century Roman called Procopius. This latter day Roman mentions a wall built by the Britons running from north to south. Historians believe he must have been mistaken. There are no walls built at this time running north to south. Hadrian's Wall (73 miles in length) and the Antonine Wall (37 miles in length) run east to west. But what if he was referring to another 'wall'; a 'wall' we believe to have been built much later - Offa's Dyke?

Could this be the wall referred to by Gildas? Could this be the wall the Emperor Severus was said to have built in the late 2nd century but historians put down to a reworking of Hadrian's Wall? Is this why no Anglo-Saxon finds have been made anywhere on the Dyke? All this was just theory until a find was made at Wat's Dyke - which runs parallel to Offa's in it’s northern section - and was thought to be built around the same time. This find, of hearth remains, was made in Oswestry, Shropshire during the construction work for the Maes-y-Clawdd Industrial Estate. These remains were carbon dated to around 446 AD: just after the Romans abandoned Britain and not Anglo-Saxon at all. This threw a 'cat amongst the pigeons' but made Steve and Scott very happy. If this was true of Wat's Dyke then the same could be so for Offa's.

This now made even more sense of what Procopius says when he tells us that the Britons built this wall and on one side of it 'was fertile pastureland and on the other a land not fit for humans and full of vipers and serpents. ' Whilst this is a little harsh on the lands of what is now Wales, it's understandable why someone in the 6th century would think so. It doesn’t really describe the environs of either Hadrian's or the Antonine Walls. Procopius also states that anyone passing over this wall would die and says, ‘They say that the souls of men departed are always conducted to this place.’ This – amongst many other discoveries - is what lead them to conclude that North Wales was the "Land of the Dead" or the Otherworld... but that's another story.

It is also incredible that in all the listings for the deeds of Offa in the 'Anglo-Saxon Chronicles' there is not one mention of him constructing such a dyke. Far lesser things get a mention so why not one for, that would be, the greatest Anglo-Saxon engineering achievement of its time? No mention of Wat’s Dyke either, and now we know why... they didn’t build it!

How did it come to be called Offa’s Dyke? All because of one line in Asser’s 'The Life of King Alfred' from 893 that says: ‘there was a late king of Mercia a certain strenuous king... Offa by name, who ordered to be made between Britannia [Wales] and Mercia, the dyke from sea to sea.’ That is the only written evidence. Even though historians have always wondered how the Saxons managed to build such a construction with no engineering skills in such matters - if they didn't build Wat's Dyke and with Wansdayke still in question – it became fact and has stuck.

Steve and Scott went looking for more evidence and found this in Nennius’ 'Historia Brittonum': ‘In order to safeguard the acquired provinces from barbarian attack he [Severus] built a wall and rampart from sea to sea through the breadth [not the length] of Britanniae, this is for 132 miles and it is called in the British language Guaul.’

The 'Leabhar Breathnach', the Gaelic version of Nennius’ work says ‘Severus was the third king who came to Britannia and it was he that made the Saxon ditch against the barbarians i.e. the Cruithnians [Picts], 130 miles long and the name of the ditch among the Britons was Guaul.’ It’s known the Cruithnians were in North Wales at this time and the dyke is the only ‘wall’ of this length with Hadrian’s and the Antonine not exceeding 73 miles. It also makes sense with the 2nd century being the wall building era: Hadrian’s c.120 and the Antonine 140AD, that Severus constructed one.

(The name given to the wall, Guaul, throws up other questions as Vortigern was suppose to have given land to the Saxons, Horsa and Hengist to the north of the wall called Guaul. This is why many think Guaul to be Handrian's Wall).

In the 4th. Century Roman text, 'Scriptores Historia Augustae', the only text that actually tells us who built the Hadrian and Antonine walls, it informs us...

Hadrian’s Wall: He [Hadrian} set out for Britain. There he put right many abuses and was the first to build a wall, eighty miles long, to separate the barbarians and the Romans.

Antonine Wall: Antonine waged many wars, using his legates. Lollius Urbicuc, a legate, conquered the Britons for him, and when he had driven the barbarians off built another wall, of turf.

Wall of Severus[?]: He [Severus} fortified Britannia, building a wall across the island from both ends to the Ocean boundary.

...three walls, not two. No mention that he worked on Hadrian’s Wall but that he had one built himself. If we needed any more evidence, then we can also look at the 4th century writings of St Jerome when translating the Greek 'Chronicles of Eusebius of Caesarea' (c. 320) in to Latin: ‘(Anno Abraham 2221) [AD205] Severus brings war over against the Britanni, where also, in order to safeguard the acquired province from attack, he made a wall from sea to sea for 132 miles’

Steve and Scott also found that... ‘in all of the early source materials used for the beginnings of British history the only wall ever mentioned is that built by Severus. There is no mention of either Hadrian’s or the Antonine Walls in Nennius, Gildasb or Bede (who supposedly lived within a few miles of Hadrian’s Wall)’... and... ‘For example, when writing 'The History of the English Church and People' in 731, Bede relates the following:

He [Severus] was compelled to come to Britain by the desertion of nearly all the tribes allied to Rome, and after many critical and hard fought battles he decided to separate that portion of the island under his control from the remaining unconquered peoples. He did this not with a wall, as some imagine, but an earthwork. For a wall is built of stone, but an earthwork such as protects a camp from enemy attack is constructed with sods cut from the earth and raised above the ground level, fronted by a ditch from which the sods were cut and surmounted by a strong palisade of logs. Severus built a rampart and ditch of this type from sea to sea fortified by a series of towers.’

There are those who argue that there would be no need for such a wall in this location at this time, such archaeologist, Keith Matthews, because there was no threat from Wales, but there are plenty who counter argument.

So should Offa’s Dyke actually be called Severus’ Wall? We’ll never know until more archaeology is carried out, but if Steve and Scott are proved right then a great deal of history would have to be rewritten.

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"Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke?" | Login/Create an Account | 28 News and Comments
  
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Monday, 30 April 2018
I believe it was built by the Welsh/British to keep our the Anglo Saxons as the Roman/ British were in current day Wales. Plus the Dyke is facing England!
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Saturday, 09 July 2011
Hi, if anyone's still reading this thread!

I've been interested in Offa's Dyke for a while, my main curiosity being that there is no reference to its construction in Anglo-Saxon literature. Surely, given the scale of the project, there would some contemporary, or later, reference to it apart from a few lines?

I'm not sold on the idea that the present structure was constructed in the time of Severus; if that was the case then it would have more formal Roman construction characteristics and would be similar to the Antonine turf wall in Scotland which it isn't. Also it appears that it covers over at least one Roman road.

That's not to say Offa necessarily built it though. Wat's Dyke and the new dating evidence for late 5th century is the clue. From this I speculate that Wat's Dyke may have been an earlier version of Offa's Dyke, which was then superceded as it became apparent something more substantial was required. This is suggested by the fact both Dykes run parallel to each other.

I see the likeliest author of both projects to be the crisis-stricken Romano-British culture at the very end of Roman rule. Wales had only been superficially Romanized, and I would venture that after the legions departed order broke down rapidly and Wales—or its invaders—began to pose a threat to sub-Roman England which at the time was attempting to carry on a semblance of Roman life—repairs to buildings and new works have been noted at Wroxeter as late as the 6th century.

Earth works are a characteristically British form of defence, and it is likely—if the Dyke is of Sub-Roman origin like Wat’s Dyke—that the 5th century Romano-British would have used traditional techniques well known to them rather than try to exactly emulate a Roman defensive wall, which they neither had the engineering skills left to do, or probably the money. While the Dyke uses basic traditional technology, the psychology and attitude behind it is very Roman.
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Saturday, 19 June 2010
I have never read such an intellegent series of comments since I started looking for the real Arthur, that is if you exclude those comments by entrenched traditionalistic die hards. Absolutely brilliant stuff but goes nowhere near appreciating how getting it absolutely correct will alter the totality of Dark Age History.

Other evidences and conclusions, that have to wait until I can get my book ublished,will shake-up all the entrenched opinions and present a history that makes a lot more sense than that presently on offer/Offa! and perpetuated by closed minds.

How about Knighthoods for Blake and Lloyd for stirring-up a hornets nest amongst the blind who are leading the blind?

Genwrian


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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Sunday, 11 October 2009
So Severus ordered the building of a "wall" cutting off all the forts and towns in Wales, not to mention the legionary fortress at Caerleon? Pull the other one. You say "because there was no threat from Wales, but there are plenty who counter argument" - name ONE.

Of course there was no threat from Wales - a network of roads and forts covered the whole country from south to north. There was also a legionary fortress at Chester during this time. You say Offa's Dyke "meanders in and out of the two kingdoms" - news to me that Wales is a kingdom. I thought it was a principality?

The Scriptores Historia Augustae is considered to be "not a reliable source for any of the period that it purports to cover", and contains a vast number of errors and just plain fiction. The History actually says "He built a wall across the island of Britain from sea to sea, and thus made the province secure"

What Procopious actually wrote?

History of the Wars 8.20.42-8

Now in this island of Britain the men of ancient times built a long wall, cutting off a large part of it; and the climate and the soil and everything else is not alike on the two sides of it. For to the south of the wall there is a salubrious air, changing with the seasons, being moderately warm in summer and cool in winter. But on the north side everything is the reverse of this, so that it is actually impossible for a man to survive there even a half-hour, but countless snakes and serpents and every other kind of wild creature occupy this area as their own. And, strangest of all, the inhabitants say that if a man crosses this wall and goes to the other side, he dies straightway. They say, then, that the souls of men who die are always conveyed to this place.

Nothing about running north-south. I was right - you ARE making it up!
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Saturday, 18 April 2009
If Offa's Dyke is the region where Wales and England are seperated, why is Hereford said to be in Wales in its Royal Charter?

It doesn't make sense!!
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Wednesday, 04 March 2009
the secure dating of Wat's Dyke to the 9th century indicates that people were more than capable of building substantial linear earthworks in the Saxon period, and strengthens the notion that Offa's Dyke was built around the same period.

Mindless speculation like that above perpetuates incorrect theories and undermines the careful, scientific work carried out by archaeologists who are trying to set these features in their true historical context.

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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Wednesday, 25 February 2009
i think the theory of offas dyke being the wall of severus has good logic also is offa a mispell of ossa and why would the saxons build a huge ditch , they never built anything approaching roman engineering ,i have also read the avalon book as well as several others about the so called king arthur
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Friday, 06 February 2009
Recent excavation has demonstrated that Wat's Dyke was constructed in the 9th century. Check out these:

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba97/news.shtml

http://www.ies.aber.ac.uk/files/english_heritage_luminescence_dating.pdf

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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Tuesday, 23 August 2005
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Been away a while and just read magpiecorvus' comments. Of course, he didn't tell you that he was Steve Blake, the originator of the theory. Thanks for getting involved Steve. Mak
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by magpiecorvus on Wednesday, 06 July 2005
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Hi I thought it was about time to get involved in the discussion and I to begin with here is a thought for members to discuss. Great play is made on the name of Offa's Dyke because Asser (the only Early Reference to it) in a piece of major Mercian propoganda assigned the building of the said dyke to the Mercian King of the same name. However the origin of the name of the dyke could be even simpler. *Ofer is an attested placename element and means "bank or ridge", also it can mean ófer , ófor, an edge, border, the perfect discription of a dyke.The well evidenced phenonomena of back formation would explain how Asser's statement or understanding of the name became applied to the king / personal name rather than the discriptive place name element.

I am at present working on the dyke article which will be online at the Virt His / CAS website as soon as it has been editied (work load and health allowing)
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Thorgrim on Wednesday, 06 July 2005
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    Very interesting point - I think that you may well be right. Tell us more when you can, Thanks
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Sunday, 19 June 2005
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Cliff posted a comment about Roman coins being found at Offa's Dyke near Wrexham so I went looking for this and discovered this at CPAT.

http://www.cpat.org.uk/ycom/ffrith/100027.htm

Mak
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Monday, 04 July 2005
    Hello - I have remembered a little more about the Roman finds in Ffrith. I read about them in a book on the Dyke by FOX, it seemed to be some kind of definitive work on Offa's Dyke but of course I can't recall the title. They (council I presume) cut thro' the dyke near the start of the village (from Wrexham direction) to make an access to a village playing field. They put up metal gates there. Some time, in the 70's probably, a home owner extending the rear of his property came across the remains of what were suggested as being a bath house. I presume the Romans en route to Rhyl for their holidays stopped over.
    Cliff
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Saturday, 18 June 2005
I know very little about either Offa's dyke or Wat's dyke, even though I live very close to both. I seem to recall that when excavation works were carried out in the village of Ffrith, near to Wrexham, they discovered Roman coins. They were cutting through the dyke in order to effect access to the village playing field. Whether this has any bearing on your discussion regarding the age of the dyke I have no idea, but it may be of some interest.
Cliff
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Sunday, 19 June 2005
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    It certainly Cliff and does and thanks for sharing it. This is the kind of information that just seems to get lost or not be shouted about. Thanks. Mak
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Thursday, 16 June 2005
HI, I TOO HAVE READ THIS AND PUT INTO GOOGLE 'THE WALL OF SEVERUS' AND BEEN IMPRESSED WITH ALL I READ; THE RIVER SEVERN ..SEVERUS? EITHER WAY WE NEED TO KNOW , DID OFFA IMPROVE ON SEVERUS' WALL AND GIVE IT HIS NAME....THE PERMANENCE SUGGESTS ROMAN TO ME...OFFA'S TIME WAS IN MORE FLUX I THINK DID THEY HAVE THE TIME AND LABOUR FORCE TO FOCUS ON A WALL OR WERE THEY TO BUSY ON MORE MILITARY DUTIES ? THANKS !
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Anonymous on Friday, 10 June 2005
I hate to state the bleedin' obvious, but a useful start might be made by reading a recent book about the archaeology of Offa's Dyke, such as D Hill and M Worthington's 'Offa's Dyke: History and Guide' (Tempus, 2003), rather than anything with 'Avalon' in the title. Blurb for Hill and Worthington's book as follows:

"Offa's Dyke is not self-explanatory. The fact that 'a great green bank and ditch strides across the hills and vales of one of the pleasantest parts of these islands, the Welsh Marches' does not betray its purpose or its creator. Through survey work and excavation we know much more and, as this book discusses, we can now trace most of the 64 miles of earthworks stretching from Rushock Hill in the south to Truddyn near the Dee estuary. Based on years of experience studying Offa's Dyke, David Hill and Margaret Worthington present a mile-by-mile description and analysis of the dyke placed within the social and political context of Offa's reign of the kingdom of Mercia...

Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Thorgrim on Friday, 10 June 2005
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    Dear Anonymous - if you had done the bleedin' obvious and read Virt History's previous post you would have seen that he has already drawn our attention to Hill and Worthington's book!
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Friday, 10 June 2005
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    As Thorgrim says, I've made reference to this book and you can see it in one of the replies below.

    I understand that any book with 'Avalon' in the title is going to put the serious historian/archaeologist off... apart from those who already work closely with Steve Blake from the University of Wales and the Vaynol Estate. 'The Keys to Avalon' is a high street book with a high street name but Steve has other pieces published with Welsh University Press that his popular books are based on. There's:

    ARTHUR OF WALES
    Collected Literary and Historical Sources: Vol. 1
    Steve Blake
    Paperback 1 86057 0747 £17.95
    November 2003 400 pp

    and...

    THE STANZAS OF THE GRAVES
    In Search of the Graves of Arthur and the Warriors of Britain
    Steve Blake
    Hardback 1 86057 0623 £30.00
    Paperback 1 86057 0631 £14.95
    March 2004 250 pp

    I think he'd much preferd to have called his book 'The Keys to Afallach', but the vast majority of the public would have known...

    Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by mickc on Thursday, 30 June 2005
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    Nothing wrong with books with Avalon in the title.
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Cernunnos on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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To what extent has the dyke been subjected to archaelogical survey? As in any modern work site, there would have been a certain amount of debris generated by the builders of the dyke; broken tools, dropped items, etc. Roman implements are quite distinguishable from Saxon. Therefore, one would reason that it should be possible to put a date on the earthwork by studying such depositions, sampled from excavations along the dyke's length (to obtain a broader picture and rule out anomalies).
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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    This is the whole problem. There have been no Saxon finds at the base levels anywhere on the dyke and no one has looked for Roman evidence of late because it's thought to be Saxon. If you go to the Clwyd Powys Archaeological Trust (CPAT) the only argument and evidence they put forward against it being Roman is that it's like Wat's and Wansdyke which are 'most likely' Saxon. We now know Wat's Dyke isn't and the jury's still out on Wansdyke. They tell us:

    "Sir Cyril Fox, an archaeologist who made a pioneering study of the earthwork in the 1920s and 1930s, interpreted the Dyke as the product of a negotiated agreement between Mercia and the Welsh Kingdoms. That view has been disputed by more recent researchers such as Frank Noble and David Hill, who explain the Dyke more as a directly defensive earthwork built explicitly in the Mercian interest at a time of continuing instability along the presumed frontier." They also sayy: "While it would be wrong to dismiss such arguments [about...

    Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Cernunnos on Sunday, 12 June 2005
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    Interesting post... I've been thinking quite a lot about the function of Offa's Dyke the last little while. I agree that it may be erronious to make the automatic assumption that this was a defensive structure, without evidence to directly support that claim. I mean, just consider the sheer length of the thing! The manpower necessary to defend such a long structure would have been phenomenal. Even if it functioned on the basis of a series of connected guard forts, as did Hadrian's Wall, it would have been terribly easy for Welsh raiders to penetrate into English territory, given that this was never a stone fortification, but at best a wooden palisade, which is vulnerable to fire/axe/escalation when undefended. The logistics of defending such a structure seem dubious from the start, given that early English society/economy wasn't organized (like their Roman predecessors) to support a large standing army of the size necessary to defend such a monumentally long wall. There would...

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      Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Monday, 13 June 2005
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      I think you're right that, whoever built it, it's something of an enigma. Why was it built and why was it constructed the way it was? I think it's more apt to compare it with the Antonine Wall than Hadrian's though. This too was a turf wall and would have experienced the same problems.

      But taking Hadrian's and the Antonine Walls into consideration, it should be remembered that they are no longer just seen as Walls to keep the enemy out but as means of policing who came through their gates and, as you say, a line to say "everything this side is our territory", especially in the case of the Antonine.

      If we, for a moment, assume it was built by in the 2nd or 3rd centuries does it then help us to know why Wat's Dyke was constructed in the 5th? In fact, this date may only refer to the southern section, which means it was either started at this time or completed at this time. So it was either constructed by Post Romano-Britons or the remaining legions from Chester? Why? Was it too...

      Read the rest of this post...
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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Hi Thorgrim,

Very good point, although I was refering to dykes of this and Wat's Dyke magnitude. As you say, the case is not proved, nor will it be until someone does intensive archaeology on it.

Mak
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Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by Thorgrim on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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You say it is the only Anglo-Saxon structure of its kind - what about the East Anglian dykes in Cambridgeshire? The Brent, Fleam and Devil's Dykes are much shorter but stretch across open land between marsh and forest. Thanks for a very interesting article. Case not proved but certainly stimulates thought and reconsideration.
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    Re: Was Offa's Dyke Offa's dyke? by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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    Hi Thorgrim,

    Very good point, although I was refering to dykes of this and Wat's Dyke magnitude. As you say, the case is not proved, nor will it be until someone does intensive archaeology on it.

    Mak
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