<< Our Photo Pages >> Waun Mawn NE - Standing Stones in Wales in Pembrokeshire

Submitted by Andy B on Thursday, 28 March 2024  Page Views: 30941

Neolithic and Bronze AgeSite Name: Waun Mawn NE Alternative Name: Tafarn y Bwlch NE
Country: Wales County: Pembrokeshire Type: Standing Stones
Nearest Town: Cardigan  Nearest Village: Crymych
Map Ref: SN08353405  Landranger Map Number: 145
Latitude: 51.971788N  Longitude: 4.791514W
Condition:
5Perfect
4Almost Perfect
3Reasonable but with some damage
2Ruined but still recognisable as an ancient site
1Pretty much destroyed, possibly visible as crop marks
0No data.
-1Completely destroyed
 3 Ambience:
5Superb
4Good
3Ordinary
2Not Good
1Awful
0No data.
 3 Access:
5Can be driven to, probably with disabled access
4Short walk on a footpath
3Requiring a bit more of a walk
2A long walk
1In the middle of nowhere, a nightmare to find
0No data.
 4 Accuracy:
5co-ordinates taken by GPS or official recorded co-ordinates
4co-ordinates scaled from a detailed map
3co-ordinates scaled from a bad map
2co-ordinates of the nearest village
1co-ordinates of the nearest town
0no data
 4

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Aluta visited on 20th Sep 2018 - their rating: Cond: 2 Access: 3 Visited not long after MPP's excavation there. The squares of turf were still freshly replaced. Most of my lingering impressions are of the treelessness of the hill and the views of hills nearby. And the wind.

PAB paulcall have visited here

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Bladup : Waun Mawn standing stones. (Vote or comment on this photo)
These stones are part of the Talfarn y Bwlch Stone Complex, Nr Brynberian in Pembrokeshire. They possibly formed part of a stone circle. The complex includes two other standing stones and a further standing stone close by.

Previous geophysical survey by the Stonehenge Riverside Project did not find any evidence for the stone circle. Excavations in September 2017 found something - more details in the comments below.

The other two standing stones are at GR: SN08153370 and a further standing stone close by at GR: SN08053390.

2018 update: The Welsh origins of Stonehenge - Excavation Update - details linked from our comments below. Are Mike Parker Pearson and team any closer to finding the stone circle where they think the Stonehenge Bluestones once sat before they were transported to Stonehenge? It looks like they have found a stone circle but connections are tenuous at the moment.
2021 update:

Their published paper is: The original Stonehenge? A dismantled stone circle in the Preseli Hills of west Wales, Antiquity, 95(379), 85-103.

The discovery of a dismantled stone circle - close to Stonehenge's bluestone quarries in west Wales - raises the possibility that a 900-year-old legend about Stonehenge being built from an earlier stone circle contains a grain of truth. Radiocarbon and OSL dating of Waun Mawn indicate construction c. 3000 BC, shortly before the initial construction of Stonehenge. The identical diameters of Waun Mawn and the enclosing ditch of Stonehenge, and their orientations on the midsummer solstice sunrise, suggest that at least part of the Waun Mawn circle was brought from west Wales to Salisbury Plain. This interpretation complements recent isotope work that supports a hypothesis of migration of both people and animals from Wales to Stonehenge.

https://doi.org/10.15184/aqy.2020.239

Details in the comments on our page and forum thread

See also the comments below for a paper from Bevins, Ixer et al: Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stone circle ... and implications for the proposed link with Stonehenge (spoiler - it looks like there isn't one, as many of us suspected) - more in the comments on our page.

Page originally by Vicky

Note: Brian John has published in the Holocene Journal his detailed critique of the hypothesis that Waun Mawn in West Wales provided the bluestone monoliths that were used at Stonehenge, details in the comments on our page
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Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : Trying to put the Waun Mawn stones in to context, this view is looking from the north with the Preseli Hills in the background. The rock outcrop on the slope (above the standing stone) is the spotted dolerite Tor of Carn Goedog where it is believed some of the Bluestones came from for stonehenge (via Waun Mawn) On the horizon to the right of the large 'saddle' shaped outcrop (Carn Gyfrwy- transla... (2 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : A decent summer solstice sun rise is becoming hard to come by but I'll consider this mission accomplished. (3 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : Seems as though the jury has come to a conclusion about a circle stone row or not. 'Conclusions The discovery of five empty stone sockets beyond the west and east ends of the arc of four former standing stones at Waun Mawn, together with another (stonehole 091) on the opposite side of the hypothesised circle, confirms that this monument was constructed to be a large stone circle, as orig... (4 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : Three of the four remaining stones on the small plateau at Waun Mawn (1 comment - Vote or comment on this photo)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : Windy quick trip up to Waun Mawn (time to waste) before attending the 3pm tour of Mike Parker Pearsons latest dig here in the Preseli's today. (Vote or comment on this photo)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : I could get a better note than that out of my.... (2 comments)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : A serene moment of solitude, or rather quick she's gone take a photo.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : Summer solstice sunrise 2021

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : A long last look back

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : Showing the location of Waun Mawn and its environs from the south (so looking N) from Mynydd Commin. So I went back to Waun Mawn and boy what a difference a TV programme makes! Every time I have visited this site I have never seen anyone else, they tend to park at the top of the hill and take the easy walk to Cerrig LLadron (Foel Eryr) to take in the views from the summit and its Bronze age buri... (2 comments)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by PaulM : The remaining standing stone which may once have formed part of a stone circle, part of the Talfarn y Bwlch Stone Complex at GR: SN08353405. (1 comment)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by PaulM : The Group of stones at Talfarn y Bwlch, perhaps a stone pair with another fallen stone or the remains of a stone circle, located at GR: SN08353405.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : A couple of the four remaining stones of the once large (110m) Waun Mawn Stone Circle

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Horatio : The only 'standing' standing stone at Waun Mawn NE. Too much clag really to show the other two laying stones or the location, so just a detailed photo one of this stone

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by SandyG : View from the east.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : Waun Mawn summer solstice sunrise. A friend at work asked me if anyone else would be there I responded in the time worn manner of I hope not, seems I'm not the only one watching tele, I even heard one of them mention Stonehenge and the moving of stones.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : Yes love blow it now, my horn was once owned by a man that used to take it to the Isle of Wight festival you know. Honest, that's what she said.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : One of the fallen stones, the other fallen stone is by the lone standing stone by the people.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : Don't look at me look at the sunrise!

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Postman : Dragging my eyes and camera away from the sun rise to actually have a look at the stones, without invading peoples space.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Adam Stanford : The arc of former standing stones at Waun Mawn during trial excavations in 2017, viewed from the east. Only one of them (third from the camera) is still standing. Recumbent stone 13 is in the foreground. Photo Credit: Adam Stanford. (3 comments)

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by Bladup : Waun Mawn standing stones.

Waun Mawn NE
Waun Mawn NE submitted by steveco : Waun Mawn Stone Circle SN083341. Only 3 stones remain.

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 337m WSW 249° Waun Mawn W* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN08033394)
 413m SSW 210° Tafarn-y-Bwlch* Standing Stones (SN08133370)
 1.2km E 95° Penanty-Isaf Gallery Grave* Passage Grave (SN0956133894)
 1.3km SE 133° Banc Llwydlos* Ancient Village or Settlement (SN093331)
 1.6km NNE 24° The Penlan Stone* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN09053545)
 1.8km NNE 12° Troed y rhiw Stone Row / Alignment (SN0879235756)
 1.8km WNW 289° Carn Wrach Cairn (SN067347)
 1.8km NNE 24° St Brynach's Well Holy Well or Sacred Spring (SN09173568)
 1.8km NNE 20° Penlan Stone Pair* Standing Stones (SN09033575)
 2.1km NW 314° Trefach Enclosure Hillfort (SN06923555)
 2.2km W 277° Banc Du (Pembs)* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN062344)
 2.2km WNW 296° Trefach* Standing Stone (Menhir) (SN064351)
 2.3km SW 217° Foel Eryr rock outcrop Rock Outcrop (SN06883227)
 2.4km SW 221° Cerrig Lladron Stones* Stone Row / Alignment (SN067323)
 2.4km NNE 18° Carnedd Meibion Owen Tor 3* Natural Stone / Erratic / Other Natural Feature (SN092363)
 2.5km SE 130° Foel Feddau Cairn (SN102324)
 2.5km ENE 76° Bedd yr Afanc* Passage Grave (SN10793458)
 2.6km SSW 212° Foel Eryr enclosure* Ancient Village or Settlement (SN069319)
 2.6km SW 220° Foel Eryr Cairn* Cairn (SN06583208)
 2.8km NNE 14° Tycanol Hillfort (SN091367)
 2.9km S 187° Mynydd Du* Cairn (SN079312)
 3.0km ENE 68° Brynberian Round Barrow(s) (SN112351)
 3.0km SSE 158° Foel Cwmcerwyn* Cairn (SN094312)
 3.1km ESE 124° Cerrigmarchogion* Rock Outcrop (SN10853225)
 3.1km W 276° Tregynon Ancient Village or Settlement (SN053345)
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Re: Waun Mawn and the lost circle by mountainman on Monday, 25 March 2024
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This may be of interest -- I have published a new article in The Holocene journal. Details:
doi.org/10.1177/09596836241236318
Full text of accepted version here:
www.researchgate.net/publication/379121966_The_Stonehenge_bluestones_did_not_come_from_Waun_Mawn_in_West_Wales?fbclid=IwAR0UHyj8hQ_gYQgNHHvHF6Wra-0Y3xoEUukqa9EQrpUGdRvis0wfV9sjKig

ABSTRACT
This paper examines the hypothesis that Waun Mawn in West Wales provided the bluestone monoliths that were used at Stonehenge. Some archaeologists believe that the site supports the last remains of a giant stone circle or ‘Proto Stonehenge’ which was dismantled and transported to Salisbury Plain around 5000 years ago. It was claimed, after three excavation seasons at Waun Mawn in 2017, 2018 and 2021, that there is firm evidence of some standing stones which were later removed or broken up, but it has still not been demonstrated that there ever was a small stone circle here, let alone a ‘giant’ one. Furthermore, there have been no control studies in the neighbourhood which might demonstrate that the speculative feature has any unique characteristics. There is nothing at Waun Mawn to link this site in any way to Stonehenge, and this is confirmed by recent cited research. No evidence has been brought forward in support of the claim that ‘this was one of the great religious and political centres of Neolithic Britain’. It is concluded that at Waun Mawn and elsewhere in West Wales there has been substantial ‘interpretative inflation’ driven by the desire to demonstrate a Stonehenge connection.

I hope this finally consigns this fantastical narrative to the history books. It should never have seen the light of day in the first place.....
Cheers
Brian

[ Reply to This ]

Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stones by Andy B on Sunday, 24 July 2022
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Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stone circle in the Mynydd Preseli, west Wales and implications for the proposed link with Stonehenge

A Neolithic stone circle at Waun Mawn, in the Mynydd Preseli, west Wales, has been proposed as the original location of some dolerite megaliths at Stonehenge, including one known as Stone 62. To investigate this hypothesis, in-situ analyses, using a portable XRF, have been obtained for four extant non-spotted doleritic monoliths at Waun Mawn, along with two weathered doleritic fragments from a stonehole (number 91). The data obtained have been compared to data from spotted and non-spotted dolerite outcrops across the Mynydd Preseli, an area known to be the source of some Stonehenge doleritic bluestones, as well as data from in-situ analysis of Stone 62 (non-spotted dolerite) and ex-situ analysis of a core taken from Stone 62 in the late 1980′s.

Recently, Stone 62 has been identified as coming from Garn Ddu Fach, an outcrop some 6.79 km to the east-southeast of Waun Mawn. None of the four dolerite monoliths at Waun Mawn have compositions which match Stonehenge Stone 62, and neither do the weathered fragments from stonehole 91. Rather the data show that the Waun Mawn monoliths, and most probably the weathered stonehole fragments, can be sourced to Cerrig Lladron, 2.37 km southwest of Waun Mawn, suggesting that a very local stone source was used in construction of the Waun Mawn stone circle. It is noted that there is evidence that at least eight stones had been erected and subsequently removed from the Waun Mawn circle but probability analysis suggests strongly that the missing stones were also derived, at least largely, from Cerrig Lladron.

Not Open Access:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X2200219X
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jasrep.2022.103556
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    Re: Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stones by mountainman on Tuesday, 26 July 2022
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    So this signals the end of the lost circle hypothesis, and shows that there is no link of any sort with Stonehenge. Mind you, the authors still insist there was a giant circle here, with 8 missing stones, but that's just a last-ditch attemp to save some face in what must be a very embarrassing retreat. We told them that the stones were local, years ago, but they refused to listen to anybody else or to do any proper geological fieldwork in the area. So this huge piece of work was not really necessary at all -- it was a hugely expensive and wasteful attempt to add credibility to a narrative that has been hyped in a manner that brings no credit to anybody involved. Perhaps we can now get some common sense into this debate, and just accept that it is a possible stone setting in an area full of features that are actually of much greater interest than the "lost circle"?
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stones by Anonymous on Friday, 29 July 2022
      I doubt they are at all embarrassed. The data do not support earlier ideas, real science requires open minds and small egos. There is an enormous difference between producing data and publishing them and prod6ucing little but spiteful claims.

      Produce data have them peer reviewed d carry on, bile is no substitute for careful considered data collection.belief otherwise s Trumpian.
      O
      [ Reply to This ]
        Re: Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stones by mountainman on Wednesday, 03 August 2022
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        Whatever spin you put on this, it is a significant climbdown from the people who have been enthusiastically promoting the "lost bluestone circle of Waun Mawn" for years, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. And I am not going to get into a slanging match with Rob Ixer or anybody else who does not have the good grace to use his own name when throwing accusations at other people.
        [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Identification of the source of dolerites used at the Waun Mawn stones by mountainman on Thursday, 10 November 2022
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    It's interesting that Tim Darvill has now entered the fray, and argues that there never was a stone circle at Waun Mawn -- or even the intention to build a small circle. He prefers a scenario in which there were some small stone settings at Waun Mawn as at other places in the neighbourhood. Even Parker Pearson and his colleagues have had to accept that there never was a circle here. It will not impress anybody when they say "There was an intention to build a circle, but they never quite got round to it....." The latest geological papers show no links between Waun Mawn and the so-called bluestone quarries, and no link with Stonehenge. The elaborate narrative that caused such a media frenzy has collapsed.
    [ Reply to This ]

Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge 2021 Interim report by Andy B on Saturday, 15 January 2022
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Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge project Interim report of the 2021 season, by Mike Parker Pearson, Chris Casswell, Jim Rylatt, Adam Stanford, Kate Welham and Josh Pollard

Waun Mawn summary: The 2021 excavations provide evidence that only 30% of Waun Mawn’s stone circle was ever completed, leaving large gaps on the west and south sides. Features along the southern perimeter can be identified as holes that were dug but never held stones, revealing that building of the circle stopped in mid-construction. Eight standing stones were subsequently dismantled, leaving just four in place. It is unlikely that there were ever more than 17 stones erected within this circle, resulting in between eight and 13 being taken away in prehistory. It is possible but unlikely that there was another dismantled circle within the larger, 110m-diameter circle; early stone circles of this type, such as Stanton Drew, tend to have smaller circles beyond them and not inside them. In these circumstances, if Waun Mawn provided some of the bluestones for Stonehenge, these can only have been a small portion of the total.

Gernos-fach Summary: The 2021 excavations at Gernos-fach uncovered a stonehole for a removed standing stone. The large leaning stone may be another in what may well have been an original stone circle. Further excavation will reveal whether further stoneholes remain to be discovered beneath the bank. The plan of this embanked circle is similar to that of Meini Gwyr at Glandy Cross; that circle was smaller (37m in diameter) and retained its 17 standing stones until the historical era. In comparison, the Gernos-fach stonehole raises the possibility that this site too once sported a ring of standing stones that could have numbered as many as 24 or so.

The full report is available at
http://www.sarsen.org/2022/01/waun-mawn-and-gernos-fach-welsh-origins.html
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    Re: Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge 2021 Interim report by Andy B on Saturday, 15 January 2022
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    Commentary on this interim report has been posted in our forum thread here by Brian John 'Mountainman':

    https://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=8562&forum=1&start=120
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    Re: Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge 2021 Interim report by mountainman on Sunday, 16 January 2022
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    In fairness, this summary just refers to the Gernos-fach part of the research. There is another part that refers to the "Waun Mawn" part of the research.

    At Gernos-fach the excavation revealed quite a messy picture of activity over a very long period of time, and I don't see any evidence anywhere in the Report which would justify the speculation that there might ever have been a ring of standing stones here.
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge 2021 Interim report by Andy B on Tuesday, 18 January 2022
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      Thanks, I've added the Waun Mawn summary above also - cunningly disguised in the middle of the report without a subheading... I'm promised some larger photos but I don't want to wait any longer to put this on our front page so here goes. More photos to follow soon hopefully so check back in a bit for these.
      [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn and Gernos-fach: the Welsh origins of Stonehenge 2021 Interim report by Bladup on Thursday, 20 January 2022
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    So no stone circle at Waun Mawn then!!! Just like we said there wasn't, and the way they're trying to make it look like a stone circle was dismantled/never finished is quite frankly pathetic, Just admit you're wrong and get on with it, This "well, we were sorta right" in academic circles has to/should stop right now, It's embarrassing to the whole community.
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by ArchAstro on Tuesday, 23 February 2021
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With all the news about Waun Mawn and its connection to Stonehenge, I wanted to understand the site a little better for myself within the context of its landscape and skyscape. I put together this video of my investigation:

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    Re: Waun Mawn by Bladup on Tuesday, 23 February 2021
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    The problem is it's about a Stone Circle that probably never existed in the first place, This is what happens when people trust the lies of the so called experts, The lie just grows and takes on a life of it's own.
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn NE by mountainman on Monday, 22 February 2021
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Forgot to mention the stones. At a rough calculation, the standing stone is c 4 tonnes and the two big recumbents are c 6 tonnes each. All 3 much bigger than any of the Stonehenge bluestones -- except maybe for the Altar Stone......Darvill and Pitts seem to doubt that there ever was a circle here -- highly irregular and imperfect stone spacing and positioning, sockets far too shallow to make sense. And no evidence that there ever were stones here that have been removed. (By the way, one thing that I might be prepared to consider is some small stones in a rather pathetic stone setting, that have been removed for use as local gateposts etc....... there are several by the adjacent roadway to Cilgwyn. And at least 3 other recumbent stones resting in the turf to the E of the "stone circle." )
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Re: Waun Mawn NE by mountainman on Monday, 22 February 2021
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I was up at Waun Mawn today in rather glorious weather. I'm now certain that the platform or bench that the proposed "giant stone circle" rests on is madee of unspotted dolerite. There is a lot of it about, in rock outcrops and stone settings on the moor. It is exactly the same rock type as the single standing stone and three recumbents. There are other recumbents in the area as well, not mentioned by MPP and his colleagues. The first thing they should have asked is this: Could the Waun Mawn stones have been sourced locally?" Somehow or other that question evaded them, and they speculate that the stones might have come from Cerrigmarchogion. "Incompetence" is the only word for it........
This is a link
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    Re: Waun Mawn NE by Bladup on Tuesday, 23 February 2021
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    Again, Fantastic Work, Well done. The mad thing is, They must know perfectly well what they should have done as they're meant to be the experts. All this seems to me to be quite calculated and the lies known about (they surely can't be that stupid?), I can only imagine after 10 years of trying and with all the money spent they "needed" to find something Newsworthy, So pretty much made it all up! For MPP it's clearly better to look like a winner than be seen as a failure, Lets be honest, he's never really been keen on real facts!
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by Rockman on Wednesday, 17 February 2021
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If this was the "Welsh Stonehenge" rather than "Castell Mawr" - shouldn't the Stones not be at Waun Mawn - shouldn't they be in the centre of the Sarsen Circle on Salisbury Plain !!
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    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Wednesday, 17 February 2021
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    There is no evidence that any of the stones at Waun Mawn have come from anywhere else, and no evidence that there were more stones here at one time than there are now. The dolerite are local, used more or less where found.
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by STOCKDALE on Tuesday, 16 February 2021
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An interesting article from the Guardian re the significance of the Waun Mawn speculation. Entitled "Another part of the Stonehenge mystery has been unearthed before our eyes."

Aimed at non archaeology specialists!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/16/stonehenge-archaeology-documentary?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Tuesday, 16 February 2021
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    OMG! There is apparently no end to the gullibility of the media! They just grab the press release and regurgitate everything, with added superlatives.......

    have you seen Mike Pitts's little diagram that places the Waun Mawn "stone holes" outside the range of the Stonehenge holes? Very interesting. He seems to think (as I do) that there is nothing at Waun Mawn to suggest any link with Stonehenge...

    This is a link
    [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Wednesday, 17 February 2021
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    Yes, I saw that. The usual journalistic gullibility, but at least the writer was perceptive enough to pick up on the way the TV prog was "manufactured" as a drama with MPP as the heroic star -- the quest narrative (in 3 Acts) was followed to the letter........
    [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Wednesday, 17 February 2021
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    The thing that interested the journalist the most was the docu-drama featuring the intrepid MPP on his quest for the Holy Grail, performed in three acts as recommended in all the best screenwriting courses.
    [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by STOCKDALE on Saturday, 13 February 2021
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In his paper with Andrew Chamberlain, "Units of measurement in Late Neolithic Southern Britain", 2007, Mike Parker Pearson claimed that the Stonehenge ditch was 106.28 metres in diameter.
Now he claims it is 110 metres to accommodate his latest Waun Mawn stone circle theory.
For myself I see this as a blatant incorporation of tagged-on 'alleged facts' to accommodate a pre-conceived theory and it should be rejected.
[ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn by Anonymous on Sunday, 21 February 2021
    Reject it on what basis?? Just because you reject it. Nothing worse than envy.
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Waun Mawn by Bladup on Sunday, 21 February 2021
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      I reject it because most of the so called "facts" that come out of MPP's mouth turn out to be anything but "facts".
      He's the modern TV/Press go to guy and the archaeological establishment, He should stick to provable facts instead of getting people to believe his made up nonsense.
      He does what the archaeological establishment think us amateurs do - He takes a theory he believes is true and tries to stick his selected "facts" to it, When he should be taking provable acts and getting a real theory from it, it's a joke and the job he is in is clearly too much for the poor fella! For the record I believe glaciers bought the mish mash of dolerites found at Stonehehge at least some of the way from Pembrokeshire, He has done absolutely nothing to prove this isn't true! Whereas the glacier theory has some computar simulations which do have glaciers heading east from Pembrokeshire, Therefore maybe having a hint of truth, He has most of the country believing even more that people bought them all the way from Pembrokeshire (because Merlin told him), Like i said before it's a joke.
      [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Thursday, 25 February 2021
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    According to RosCleal et al, in that heavy tome, the ditch diameter is 110m if you take the centre line. Obviously a few less if you take the inner line and a few more if you take the outside edge.
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Waun Mawn by enjaytom on Monday, 01 November 2021
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      The old Druid technician used edge lines of white chalk dust, that way the original design was preserved and not destroyed when a post hole was excavated. Get rid of thinking in the modern centre line way, then you will achieve better results and make more accurate comments about Waun Mawn and other sites.
      Waun Mawn is the missing link between Wales and England's Stonehenge philosophy. The twin Sun and Moon calendars, five day weeks and two total eclipses of the Moon forecast techniques, that is what Stonehenge is all about.
      [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by STOCKDALE on Friday, 12 February 2021
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From Brian John's paper:

Parker Pearson et al (2019a) make the following claims for this site: "Six of these features
(the discovered “pits”or “sockets”) were holes for standing stones removed in antiquity. Together
with the four remaining monoliths, they were part of a former stone circle with a diameter of 110m.
This makes Waun Mawn the third largest stone circle known in Britain."
The essential problem is that there are only four stones that might be interpreted as part of
an arc, and they are irregularly spaced and hard to place on any circumference at all. In
his 2012 book Parker Pearson said (on p 283): "Andrew (Chamberlain) pointed out that the
diameter and spacing of this possible former circle would have been almost exactly the same as that
of the Aubrey Hole Circle at Stonehenge." This is not true, since the Aubrey Holes circle has a diameter of about 87m. In 2017 Parker Pearson stated that the Waun Mawn circle had a diameter of 115m, and in 2018 he said it was 110m. Other estimates are that a circle on this
site might have had a diameter of 140m, although that would have taken the southernmost
stones over the lip of the Waun Mawn "platform".
Then there is this claim: "The fact that Waun Mawn stone circle has the same diameter as the
perimeter ditch of Stonehenge is also highly suggestive of a close link between these two
monuments. No other Neolithic monument in Britain shares this same diameter.”
The matching of the Waun Mawn "stone circle" with the circumference and diameter of the
outer ditch at Stonehenge makes no sense. Parker Pearson and his colleagues are not
talking of two stone circles that might be related, but one putative stone circle and one
earthwork which did not, as far as we know, involve any stones. By common consent, the
outer ditch at Stonehenge was dug at a very early stage, at least 5,000 years ago. The stone
settings came much later, and if (as suggested by Parker Pearson) the Aubrey Holes held
bluestones, the diameter of that circle must have been c 87m.
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    Re: Waun Mawn by mountainman on Friday, 12 February 2021
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    I know all of these sites very well, and I saw all the digs when they were open.
    More convinced than ever that this TV programme, and the paper in Antiquity, is based upon a mountain of assumptions, and that the "evidence"presented just does not withstand scrutiny. I am amazed that the Antiquity paper was ever accepted for publication, but it sure is worth reading, because then you will see that the scientific norm of evidence presentation >> discussion of possible interpretations >> conclusions is completely abandoned -- there is no scientific methodology here at all. This is all about ruling hypothesis confirmation -- not a very good advert for Archaeology, I fear......

    Here is my take on the article:
    https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2021/02/antiquity-article-on-lost-circle-review.html
    All the best
    Brian
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      Re: Waun Mawn by Bladup on Saturday, 13 February 2021
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      That's a brilliant take on the article Brian, I was so happy reading your common sense compaired with MPP and his teams rubbish, Well done. A few years ago to fit his wild theory MPP said he thought that Neolithic people floated the Bluestones up the river Avon to his "so called" Bluestonehenge (I cringed writing that name), but now (to fit his new wild theory) he claims Neolithic people wouldn't be capable of such things, This fella can't even remember what he himself has said in the past, Are we honestly expected to lap up this utter nonsense.
      Bluestones of various types (as we all know) are scattered all over the region, no need to dismantle any (made up) stone circle, But hay ho MPP thinks Merlin did it, so it must be true, The silly associated BBC TV program even made me laugh out loud twice, Which i guess is better than throwing something at the telly!!!
      [ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn by STOCKDALE on Friday, 12 February 2021
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I think these conclusions made by Brian John are critical. Does the evidence prove a large 110 metre diameter stone circle existed here?
I have edited Brian 's comments but would love to hear in the light of further survey evidence in 2020 whether he still believes there is little or no evidence for such a large circle.

"Waun Mawn and the search for “Proto-
Stonehenge”
Brian John
Dept of Geography, University of Durham (retired). Current address: Trefelin, Cilgwyn, Newport,
Pembrokeshire SA42 0QN, UK. Email: [email protected]
Greencroft Working Paper No 4, October 2020, 30 pp
Abstract
This paper examines Waun Mawn in its regional context, on the northern flank of Mynydd Preseli
in Pembrokeshire. The geology is typical for the area, with outcrops of Ordovician mudstones and
meta-mudstones and igneous rocks belonging to the Fishguard Volcanic Group. The landscape has
been intensively glaciated on more than one occasion, and glacial and periglacial deposits are
widespread. There is an extensive litter of erratic boulders (mostly of dolerite) scattered across the
hillside. Many of these boulders have been used in prehistoric stone settings around Waun Mawn,
Tafarn y Bwlch and Banc Llywdlos. Included in these stone settings are single and double standing
stones, ring cairns, passage and gallery graves, and what appear to be collapsed cromlechs. Parker
Pearson (2017, 2019) has claimed that Waun Mawn carries traces of a dismantled “giant stone
circle” which provided bluestone monoliths for Stonehenge. The evidence cited in two publications
is examined, and does not withstand scrutiny. From examinations of the shallow excavations in
2017 and 2018, it is concluded that there might have been some small standing stones which were
later removed or broken up, but it is not demonstrated that there ever was a small stone circle here,
let alone a “giant” one. Furthermore, there have been no control studies in the neighbourhood
which might demonstrate that the speculative feature has any significance. There is nothing at
Waun Mawn to link this site in any way to Stonehenge, and it is concluded that the archaeologists
have simply “discovered” what they wanted to find, and have created an elaborate and unnecessary
bluestone narrative around it. No evidence has been brought forward in support of the claim that
“this was one of the great religious and political centres of Neolithic Britain”.
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Waun Mawn Tonight on BBC 2 at 9pm Stonehenge: The Lost Circle Revealed by AngieLake on Friday, 12 February 2021
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'Stonehenge: The Lost Circle Revealed' is on BBC 2 at 9pm, tonight, 12th February.

"Using cutting edge research, a team of archaeologists have compiled evidence to fill in a 400-year knowledge gap about Stonehenge. By combining 3D scanning, field archaeology and lab analysis, they've discovered where the bluestones were quarried and where they first stood. Professor Alice Roberts joins Professor Mike Parker Pearson to piece together more parts of the puzzle."
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The original Stonehenge? A dismantled stone circle in the Preseli Hills of west Wales by Andy B on Friday, 12 February 2021
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Here's the Antiquity paper, Open Access fortunately

The original Stonehenge? A dismantled stone circle in the Preseli Hills of west Wales.
Mike Parker Pearson, Josh Pollard, Colin Richards, Kate Welham, Timothy Kinnaird, Dave Shaw, Ellen Simmons, Adam Stanford, Richard Bevins, Rob Ixer, Clive Ruggles, Jim Rylatt and Kevan Edinborough. Antiquity, 95(379), 85-103.

The discovery of a dismantled stone circle - close to Stonehenge's bluestone quarries in west Wales - raises the possibility that a 900-year-old legend about Stonehenge being built from an earlier stone circle contains a grain of truth. Radiocarbon and OSL dating of Waun Mawn indicate construction c. 3000 BC, shortly before the initial construction of Stonehenge. The identical diameters of Waun Mawn and the enclosing ditch of Stonehenge, and their orientations on the midsummer solstice sunrise, suggest that at least part of the Waun Mawn circle was brought from west Wales to Salisbury Plain. This interpretation complements recent isotope work that supports a hypothesis of migration of both people and animals from Wales to Stonehenge.

https://doi.org/10.15184/aqy.2020.239
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Researchers suggest Stonehenge’s first stone circle transplanted from Welsh hillside by Andy B on Friday, 12 February 2021
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Professor Colin Richards, of the University of the Highlands and Islands Archaeology Institute, is co-author of a new paper proposing that a stone circle in Wales was the source of the first megaliths erected at the site of Stonehenge.

Previously, the Stones of Stonehenge research project confirmed the Wiltshire monument’s bluestones came from quarry sites in the Preseli Hills in Wales. This prompted the reinvestigation the nearby Waun Mawn stone circle to see whether it also shared links with Stonehenge.

The results, published in the journal Antiquity today, suggest the Welsh stone circle was partially dismantled in prehistory and moved 280km (175 miles) to Salisbury Plain, where it was rebuilt to form the first of Stonehenge’s five distinct phases.

The research is also the subject of a BBC2 television documentary, Stonehenge: The Lost Circle Revealed, tonight, Friday, at 9pm. (UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s5xm

Only four megaliths remain at Waun Mawn stone circle, which lies close to quarries that, in the past ten years, were identified as the source of the Stonehenge bluestones.

But finding the Waun Mawn stone circle was not easy.

As far back as 2010, the researchers suspected the remaining four stones were part of a circle. Geophysics, however, proved unproductive and the next five field seasons were spent investigating other sites without success.

In 2017, in a last throw of the dice, they carried out a trial excavation at Waun Mawn and found two empty socket-holes. Renewed geophysical and ground radar surveys failed to reveal anything other than that the ground was unsuitable for geophysics. It was clear that only digging would reveal the buried sockets.

So far, excavation has located the position of six of the missing Waun Mawn megaliths. Extrapolating from these, the complete circle likely numbered 30-50 stones. These were arranged more irregularly than at Stonehenge, although two were positioned as “gunsights” forming an entrance aligned on the midsummer solstice sunrise.

The stone circle had a diameter of 110m, not only making it the third largest stone circle in Britain but matching the diameter of the ditch enclosing Stonehenge’s primary phase.

Optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating, which measures the length of time since quartz was last exposed to sunlight, indicates the circle was constructed between 3600-3200BC and is therefore one of the earliest stone circles in the country.

The excavation also revealed a lack of activity after 3000BC, by which point construction had started at Stonehenge. This, together with the fact that its bluestones came from known Stonehenge quarries, led the research team to conclude that Waun Mawn was taken apart and its megaliths used for a new monument on Salisbury Plain. Some were probably incorporated into subsequent iterations of Stonehenge and a few of the Waun Mawn megaliths may still be present at the site. For instance, one of the remaining Stonehenge bluestones has an unusual cross-section which matches one of the Waun Mawn stone-sockets. Chippings in that socket are of the same rock type as the Stonehenge stone.

More at
https://archaeologyorkney.com/2021/02/12/researchers-suggest-stonehenges-first-stone-circle-was-transplanted-from-welsh-hillside/
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Waun Mawn Video Talk by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson by Andy B on Wednesday, 18 November 2020
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Waun Mawn: a former stone circle near the bluestone quarries for Stonehenge by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson

In 2017 and 2018 the Stones of Stonehenge Project, led by researchers from University College London and the universities of Southampton, Bournemouth and the Highlands & Islands, carried out excavations at Waun Mawn in North Pembrokeshire to discover if the four monoliths there are all that is left of a prehistoric stone circle. These four monoliths – three of them recumbent and one still standing – form an arc which previous archaeologists have suspected may be remains of a circle. Our excavations discovered a further six empty sockets around the perimeter, revealing that this stone circle was originally 110m in diameter. This makes it one of the largest stone circles in Britain and the same diameter as the ditch around Stonehenge. The team have also been able to establish its age by radiocarbon dating and optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) profiling and dating.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEFTJvC4r4A
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    Part of the Pembrokeshire Coast Archaeology Day 2020 by Andy B on Wednesday, 18 November 2020
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    This was part of the Pembrokeshire Coast Archaeology Day which was held online this year

    More details of the sessions here
    https://web.archive.org/web/20201104183045/https://www.pembrokeshirecoast.wales/event/archaeology-day-2020/

    Videos of all the talks are available on Youtube
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmyDlzMF-5-pTebMDX8GoYQ/videos

    There was a question and answer session at the colse of the Archaeology Day 2020 with Stuart, Tomos and contributors of the afternoon talks (in Welsh and English).

    Follow the links to the timed seqments here
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_4Wud1Yzyo

    [ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn Video Talk by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson by mountainman on Sunday, 06 December 2020
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    I am not convinced by any of this, and will reserve judgment on whether there was a circle(completed or unfinished) here until we have some hard evidence which we can properly assess. Waun Mawn is just a part of an extensive landscape of prehistoric features, of which the putatative "giant stone circle" seems to be just a minor component:

    https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2020/11/waun-mawn-and-banc-llwydlos-tribe.html

    Even if there was an uncompleted circle here, there is no evidence at all that it had anything to do with Stonehenge.
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Waun Mawn Video Talk by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson by Bladup on Sunday, 06 December 2020
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      I agree, He (MPP) and his team for some reason seem to have got it into their heads that the "supposed" massive stone circle (It would have been the 3rd largest in the country if it was ever there) that they believe once stood here was purposely dismantled and taken to the Stonehenge site to become the famous "bluestones"
      6 (stone)holes without proving any stones stood in them proves nothing, even if stones once stood in them it could have been prehistoric people moving around the stones still to be found at the site (it's the Earthworms Fault, it's got large gaps, it might never have been completed, all totally laughable), I believe the phrase for what he and his team are doing would be "clutching at straws"
      It's unproven theory upon unproven theory, which is quite frankly common with the famous telly archaeologists nowadays.
      This is certainly ironic because the archaeologists on telly before these (well paid) fools where totally fact based to the point of boring, and here lies the answer - making headlines so more people watch the program/come to whatever event, as viewing figures/headlines/selling tickets definitely in these days come before the facts. I have been to the site and don't believe the stone circle they "see in their heads" ever stood here, At best one may have been started but never finished but I do imagine various stone settings might have been placed here at various times in the prehistoric, with the national tale of stones been moved around and taken off to build local walls/roads leaving the stones we are left with today.
      [ Reply to This ]
        Re: Waun Mawn Video Talk by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson by mountainman on Sunday, 06 December 2020
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        Glad that I am not alone in feeling sceptical about this whole gigantic (and ever-expanding) narrative. Interpretative inflation if ever I saw it. I have produced a short paper (not peer-reviewed, I hasten to add) which tries to give a more balanced view of what we have at Waun Mawn:

        https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345177590_Waun_Mawn_and_the_search_for_Proto-_Stonehenge

        There's more than one side to evert story -- you pay your money and you take your choice.
        [ Reply to This ]
          Re: Waun Mawn Video Talk by Prof. Mike Parker Pearson by Bladup on Monday, 07 December 2020
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          I read your paper and couldn't agree with you more (which is saying something because i tend to pick holes in things because they often don't make any sense).
          Interpretative inflation is your fantastic term for what's going on here, The way they changed their views after not finding what they wanted at Rhosyfelin and Carn Goedog into finding "A dismantled monument built around the time we need that was dismantled and taken the Stonehenge is quite frankly pathetic (esp considering like you said - all the loose natural stones lying around the region!), and the sad thing is their lies upon lies will continue to get national press coverage while your common sense paper won't (i honestly hope i'm wrong on this last statement), but at least our voices are out there, trying to make people see how daft the "experts" often are.
          In fact when it comes to MPP personally he seems to have that big an ego that it seems if he thinks it, it must be true and he then tries his hardest to fit his so called "facts" into holes (no pun intended) that those so called "facts" just won't fit into.
          My money is certainly on you Sir! and well done on your well written and researched Paper.
          [ Reply to This ]

Mike Parker-Pearson talk Brynberian to Stonehenge Castell Henllys 19th/20th Sept 2018 by Andy B on Sunday, 09 September 2018
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Mike Parker-Pearson talk - Brynberian to Stonehenge... at Castell Henllys 19th/20th Sept 2018

The legendary (can I say that?) Mike Parker-Pearson has a talk coming up at Castell Henllys in a week or so

From Brynberian to Stonehenge, New Discoveries in North Pembrokeshire Join Professor Mike Parker Pearson to find out more about the new discoveries linking Brynberian to Stonehenge. BOOKING ESSENTIAL

Ref:4576

Booking : 01239 891319

There are currently plenty of spaces for the 20th, the 19th is getting very booked up.

Held at Castell Henllys - Meline (near Crymych) SA41 3UR

PRICES
Adults £5.00
Seniors £5.00

https://www.pembrokeshirecoast.wales/default.asp?PID=367

I (Andy B) am hoping to be there on the evening of the 20th Sept, along with several other Portal and 'Old Stones' book contributors who may like to make themselves known so I will hope to possibly see you there...! The 20th is also the official launch date of our book...

More details in our forum here
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=7762&forum=1&start=0
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Re: Waun Mawn NE by JJ on Tuesday, 22 May 2018
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The stones used may have indeed come from Carn Goedog area but they were - in my opinion - not those then taken and transported to Stonehenge. Why would anyone want to transport the stones X miles in the wrong direction before removing them to Stonehenge?

I believe the stones where removed from Carn Goedog (where I also found large chucks of quartz) and taken to another site close by for a 'blessing' ceremony before its epic journey eastwards.

Though M.P.P conducts his work in a scientific manner, he will never unveil the answer until he feels the spirituality that brought these amazing enigmas into being.

[ Reply to This ]
    Re: Waun Mawn NE by mountainman on Wednesday, 30 May 2018
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    Hi JJ -- why would anybody want to cart bluestones from Carn Goedog to Waun Mawn when there are abub=n=dant stones of all shapes and sizes lying around in the immediate vicinity
    [ Reply to This ]

The Welsh origins of Stonehenge - Excavation Update by Andy B on Monday, 07 May 2018
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The Welsh origins of Stonehenge - Excavation Update - Michael Parker Pearson
"the four megaliths found at Waun Mawn do indeed appear to be part of a larger stone circle dismantled in antiquity."

FULL REPORT from the Rust Family Foundation: Archaeology Grants Program at http://www.rfamfound1.org/proj23find.html

Highlights:

In 2017 the specific goals were:
1. To establish whether a group of circular enclosures at Pensarn were remains of a complex of Neolithic henges that might have formed a regional centre of power linked to the quarrying of the bluestones.
2. To establish whether an arc of standing stones (Waun Mawn) formed the remains of a dismantled Neolithic stone circle where the bluestones were first erected before being moved to Stonehenge..

Conclusions:
Investigations into the stones of Stonehenge in 2017 moved from study of the bluestone quarries to exploration of the prehistoric landscape in which Stonehenge’s bluestone sources were located.

The main discovery was that four standing stones in an arc at Waun Mawn, above a source of the River Nevern, are the likely remains of a prehistoric stone circle, most of which was dismantled and removed in prehistory (fig.6). Its 80m-long arc suggests a former diameter of c.115m, which would make it the largest stone circle in Britain except for the outer ring of Avebury. Although excavations in 2017 failed to obtain a date for the stone circle’s erection or dismantling, its stone sockets were emptied and the stones removed before the onset of peat growth. We are currently awaiting radiocarbon dates from the base of the peat, though it is likely to have started forming in the Bronze Age.

Further research is planned for 2018 to confirm that Waun Mawn is a giant stone circle and, if so, when its standing stones were erected and dismantled. Using geological analysis, we aim to establish if the megaliths that once stood here can be matched with bluestones at Stonehenge.

More at
http://www.sarsen.org/2018/05/the-welsh-origins-of-stonehenge.html
and
http://www.rfamfound1.org/proj23find.html
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Waun Mawn Excavations 2017 by Andy B on Wednesday, 04 October 2017
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Brian John writes: Further work has been done at Waun Mawn, close to Tafarn y Bwlch, where all those standing stones and recumbent stones are located.
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/dismantled-stone-circle.html
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/another-hypothesis-bites-dust.html
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/feeding-stonehenge-from-preseli.html
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/tafarn-y-bwlch-stone-complex-waun-mawn.html

Apparently work was not started there until almost the end of the digging season, but on Tuesday 19th Sept the diggers found what appears to be a stone socket with some organic material within it, and rumour has it that another socket has also been found.

Samples sent for C14 dating might show when the stones were in position and when they were removed or fell over. Nobody should be surprised by any of this -- there are two very large recumbent stones and a smaller one visible on the surface at Waun Mawn, which might well have been upright at some stage. So there will be sockets and there will be organic materials within them. There is also a very fine standing stone. As pointed out in previous posts, the stones might be on the circumference of a very large circle.

[Information sourced from reports of Mike PP's guided tours and evening lectures over the past few days. If I (Brian) have misreported anything, apologies - no doubt somebody will correct me, and I will adjust the text accordingly.]

More at
https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/news-from-2017-preseli-digging-season.html
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Re: Waun Mawn by coldrum on Wednesday, 08 July 2009
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Coflein records:

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/304355/details/WAUN+MAWN+STANDING+STONE/

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/300423/details/WAUN+MAWN+STANDING+STONE%3BPOSSIBLE+STONE+CIRCLE/
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