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<< Our Photo Pages >> Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle - Modern Stone Circle etc in Wales in Wrexham

Submitted by Pryderi on Wednesday, 25 May 2011  Page Views: 10516

Modern SitesSite Name: Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle Alternative Name: New Hall incorporating Pengwern
Country: Wales County: Wrexham Type: Modern Stone Circle etc
Nearest Town: Wrexham or Oswestry  Nearest Village: Llangollen
Map Ref: SJ2181041661
Latitude: 52.966586N  Longitude: 3.165632W
Condition:
5Perfect
4Almost Perfect
3Reasonable but with some damage
2Ruined but still recognisable as an ancient site
1Pretty much destroyed, possibly visible as crop marks
0No data.
-1Completely destroyed
 5 Ambience:
5Superb
4Good
3Ordinary
2Not Good
1Awful
0No data.
 5 Access:
5Can be driven to, probably with disabled access
4Short walk on a footpath
3Requiring a bit more of a walk
2A long walk
1In the middle of nowhere, a nightmare to find
0No data.
 5 Accuracy:
5co-ordinates taken by GPS or official recorded co-ordinates
4co-ordinates scaled from a detailed map
3co-ordinates scaled from a bad map
2co-ordinates of the nearest village
1co-ordinates of the nearest town
0no data
 4

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Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Gorsedd circle image by Mike Field (Vote or comment on this photo)
Plas Newydd is worthy of a visit in its own right but the matter in hand is the presence of a 'Gorsedd' Stone circle in the grounds. Before anyone comments on the pedestrian fact that this is a relic of the 19thC Llangollen Eisteddfod, famous for its revival of the 'Bardic Tradition’ and therefore not ancient, there are some issues with the stones themselves.

About a third appear to be cup marked; they are very weathered and are of considerable size to the extent that it must have been quite an undertaking to have quarried them and transported them to this place from elsewhere. Although this was not an impossible task for the organisers, I am minded to suggest that these stones may already have been on this site or else transported from an existing ritual site, which I think would be an unlikely displacement for the superstitious Eisteddfod organisers.

One of the stones in particular carries a very interesting image and I have included several perspectives of that (although it is best seen in a slanted light). There is a round cup mark with what looks like carvings of a fan tail streaming from it. This is not an unusual depiction of a comet, and I have seen the same iconography across many cultures, although most, as far as I can assess are images of Halley’s Comet (again some comparative images included).

I will leave any judgement open to comment but the fantail is clearly carved and not naturally occurring, there are also other semi circular marks on this stone (top right of the image) of concentric rings but these fail to resolve themselves into anything recognisable as the stone may have fractured.

I have a John Speed map of Denbighshire 1610 with his additional notes on the obverse which is otherwise proving to be a font of interesting facts. Speed records, at that time only five major enclosed parklands in Denbighshire:- one at Denbigh and four in the Dee Valley at Chirk; Abenbury (Wrexham); Holt and Llangollen where he records ‘New Hall’. This is not otherwise the New Hall estate at Ruabon which is North of the Dee but New Hall for Plas Newydd in the Vale of Llangollen. The Pengwern Estate is close by the present Plas Newydd site just up from a road called ‘The Hermitage’. The potential for Plas Newydd to have ben an early monastic site and an even earlier proto Celtic site is high - this is precisely the kind of elevated ‘sweet spot’ so beloved by the monks. Although in later convention, the Eisteddfod Gorsedd stones were quarried as new from the Minera limestone quarries some six miles away, the Plas Newydd stones look genuinely ancient.

There is little written about the infamous - to some - Eisteddfod of 1858 but I include here an extract relating to the Gorsedd stones in question:-

'‘The Gorsedd consisted of the maen arch, or maen llog, the chief stone placed in the centre, round which, in a circle of 30 feet diameter, are the 'meini gwyngil,' being twelve stones set on end, to represent the signs of the zodiac. The sun was considered as a type of God – the Sun of Righteousness; hence the construction of the druidical places of worship in a circular shape. Towards the east, on the outside of the circle, were three other stones, at a distance of nine fathoms from the centre piece, and placed in such positions with respect to the latter, that lines drawn from it, through the three, would indicate the points in the heavens at which the sun rises on the solstices and equinoxes of the year respectively. These lines or pencils of light, as they are termed, form the mystic symbol known amongst the Bards and druids as the Name of God – the 'Word' or attribute of creation – it being held by the Bards that God created the universe by showing and pronouncing His own name. It was, we understand, the original intention of the committee to have the stones of such magnitude, and so placed, as to be a permanent memento of the Eisteddfod, but the ground being a charitable bequest to the inhabitants for the purposes of recreation, of which the Board of Health are trustees, this intention could not conveniently be carried into effect."

Comments welcome.
Mike Field.

Plas Newydd is just above the A5 road East out of Llangollen and is a well established tourist site run as a museum by Denbighshire County Council. This was the home of Lady Eleanor Butler and Sarah Ponsonby. They are the famous 'Ladies of Llangollen' whose remarkable story is printed in their 'Diaries' along with incidental but evocative descriptions of North Wales in the 18C. The site of the present house is much older incorporating the Pengwern Hall Estate itself of more ancient provenance and, once an outreach of the monks at nearby Valle Crucis Abbey.

Note: Possible rock art with the representation of a comet discovered by Mike Field
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Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Examples of representations of comets from Mike Field (Vote or comment on this photo)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Full view of the possible comet carving. Image by Mike Field (Vote or comment on this photo)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Close-up showing what could be a carving of a comet on one of the stones Image by Mike Field (2 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Gorsedd Circle image by Mike Field (Vote or comment on this photo)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Wider view of the stone with the possible comet carving. Image by Mike Field (Vote or comment on this photo)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Detailed view of the possible comet carving. Image by Mike Field

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Another view of the possible comet carving image by Mike Field

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Comet example image by Mike Field

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi : Gorsedd Circle image by Mike Field (5 comments)

Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle
Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle submitted by Pryderi

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"Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle" | Login/Create an Account | 5 News and Comments
  
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Re: Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle by DeBrotherton on Saturday, 28 May 2016
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Thinking twice after my last wordy post, I remembered Moel Y Uchel, which used a pattern of a modified "cross quartered" circular formation, but did so by a sweep of 4 majot menhir oppositional to onr in alignment with a central one that aligns at solstice though and across a shorter one in the circle center. What is different, however, is that while Moel Y Uchel consists of even more than the stones still present (41 with a likely original total of well over than and 48 being a good guess as possible without a detailed study on the ground), a much more significant difference is that Y Uchel is a solid mess of touching stones in a ring with specific entry and exit points as,defined space - like it was defining a space to contain someone or something. Similar circles in other areas have been associated with specific unique grave sites with a marker in the he center noting the body burial location.

An open circle of stones which should be for communing with the blessed ancestors wouldn't have stones tou hing each other line this one, but it would also not have a central stone over what was likely a body specific monument, it was likely to be off center like an "altar stone", or not present. While a body might be placed as a foundational, it wouldn't have been the primal or central purpose,and so placed slightly to the North or South of center to act as a conduit for communications between the living (hence openings in between the stones Asian openings to the otherworld, not a solid wall containg and limiting access to a narrow access point.

This circle confuses these functions, and is just too prettily perfect and symetrical to work as a megalithic original site.
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Re: Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle by DeBrotherton on Saturday, 28 May 2016
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While a comet could certainly be possible, a helios symbol or more specifically an "Awen" as a radiant from the sun is more probable, especially from its relation to Eisteddfod. They would have valued the ancient stones if they were present, but might also have rearranged them in combination with newly quarried ones to "fix" them. While it is possible, too, that they could have moved them from another site, but having fabricated stone circles in the States as a landscape feature, if I could utilize something in the immediate vicinity, even if I had to move it a bit to make it look the way I like, I would. My question is whether there are strong differences in the apparent ages of the stones or their geological composition.

If the stones are of different ages or compositions then it is likely an existing feature that was "fixed" in Eisteddfod's zeal to promote Welsh culture. Any new stone would have been quarried from the same source at the same time, so if the old stone was all otherwise identical in ages and geological composition, then it is unlikely that if they were part of a repaired ring, that they came from a different location so were likely previously present at the least, even if in different arrangement at most.

The wear on the markings and general appearance of the stones you noted makes full modern quarry unlikely, and in like manner, the consistant age and geological composition of the stones would conversely radically increase the likelihood that this isn't a modern stone ring at all, but rather a preserved original existing, rearranged existing, or moved existing from a nearby location. Answering these questions and a comprehensive study of the archeosphere in which the circle sits could tell. One note, however. If the stones appear from similar age, but different composition (therefore source quarry), then it is more likely they came from more than one, existing, nearby sites and reused in appreciation of their antiquity for a new construct.

Regardless this is worthy of inquiry, and I hope someone considers doing it. Personally my money's on reset ancient stones either existing or in place, or Post Roman invasion because otherwise 12 stones in a circle was an unlikely arrangement with a central stone. 8 with a central for the wheel of time or 9 fold mother. 13 possibly with 3 linesite stones as Stonehenge also uses multiples of 3, 13 & 33 in its geometry, and multiples of 2, 3 & 5 are also possible from the symbolic value of the numbers as well.

2, 3 & 5 work from the light/dark duality, and the connection to the pre-Egypto Chaldean influences of the elements of the Indo-European calender. Throughout Europe there are fragmental pieces of evidence for a calendric system that had 5 seasons with each having 2 divisions totaling 10 in each year (thus December as the last one later added to in the middle as Julius and Augustus to make it align with the new fashionable Chaldean 12 "month" astrological year based on 12 acknowledged constellations that Rome adopted). This calender would have had each division be 36 days long with 5 intercalendry days to mourn the dying sun at the Winter Solstice I believe, but they could also have been holy days before the Summer Solstice just as well - this isn't as clear.

The Irish record a 9 day week, which 4 of these bring us to 36 days. The seasons are likened to the human lifecycle - birth, menses, pregnancy, retirement, death. My belief that the intercalendry days come before the Winter Solstice is from the association of it with the birth, and so there are extra days given for the soul's (sun)travel from this world to the Otherworld and back again through tbe Earth to be reborn. Archaeoastronomy also notes a different view of the celestial belt constellations as well with there being 10 largely different signs there, not the 12 of Egypt and Chaldean Astronomy/Astrology. As an example, one constellation was a sailing ship, another a great warrior. What we see as Virgo now was more of

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Archaeology antics at Plas Newydd, Wed 25th July by Andy B on Wednesday, 18 July 2012
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County: Isle of Anglesey

Wed 25 July; 10.00-16.00

Delve through the layers of Plas Newydd from prehistory to the present day.Have a go at digging in our dig boxes and help our wardens shape a roundhouse.

Location: Plas Newydd, Llanfairpwll, Anglesey, LL61 6DQ. Two miles south-west of Llanfairpwll off A4080 to Brynsiencyn.

Org: National Trust
Name: Kat Croxford
Tel: 01248 714795
Email: [email protected]
Web: http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/plasnewydd

Part of the Festival of British Archaeology 2012
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Re: Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle by coldrum on Tuesday, 07 June 2011
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Whilst interesting there appear to be other scratches on the stone in the photo.
The scratches may well be man made but that doesn't mean it's a comet.
It is easy for our imaginations to get the better of us at times. People have claimed to see helicopters in heiroglyphs and dinosaurs on rock art which on further investigation are nothing of the sort.

Our ancestors do appear to have had an interest in the night sky and the appearance of bright comets probably amazed them just as much as they still do today.
Weather or not they depicted comets in rock art is open to debate.
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    Re: Plas Newydd Gorsedd Stone circle by Pryderi on Tuesday, 28 June 2011
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    Hi Coldrum - sorry to be late in reply - have been away. I did not say that this was a comet depiction, I said that it looked like comet depictions in other contexts and asked for comments so in that respect, thanks. We have otherwise moved on a little. I met with the Denbighshire Archaeologist on site last week - she seemed to know about such matters. She doubted the relationship between the 'ray' and the cup mark, if that indeed is what it is but agreed that the markings were not naturally occurring and were 'of human agency'. We also looked more closely at the other stones to find at least two others which were more clearly cup marked, one with distinctly larger carving which was unrecognizable as anything we might know and a third which had been quite significantly shaped and smoothed off. Whereas they were perfectly well described by the organisers of the 19C Eisteddfod, they were at that time in a different location but it is unfortunately not clear whether that was their original location. The fact that they were originally ritual stones is apparently undisputed. A respondent who is a Numismatist (John Hooker) from Canada has advised that there are identical markings at New Grange but the 'ray' effect is more common on early coins as a Helio symbol - the radiant sun - which might make more sense.

    Once again thanks for your interest.

    Mike
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