<< News >> Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire

Submitted by TimPrevett on Monday, 06 June 2005  Page Views: 36034

Alternative Archaeology
The Berth
The Berth submitted by VirtHist : This reconstruction is based an an excellent aerial photograph of the the Berth owned by the Clwyd-Powys Archaeological Trust (CPAT 84-C-215) who gave us their permission to use it on our site. I've made ours black and white as I think it gives it an older, moodier feel. Of course no Iron Age person would have seen this view, unless it was a Druid having an out-of-body experience. Only the loc... (Vote or comment on this photo)
ShropshireTraveller writes An article published in the Sunday Express on June 5th claims that King Arthur ruled in Shropshire, linking many Prehistoric Shropshire sites with the great British Arthurian Mythology.

Graham Phillips, a former BBC journalist is convinced that many sites within Shropshire are central to the Arthurian Mythology, by virtue of linking the name of the 6th Century King Owain "The Bear" to Arthur. Mitchell's Fold stone circle was the site of the epiphanous moment where the young Arthur drew the sword from the stone. Wroxeter, the 4th largest Romano-British city became Camelot (initially a resettled population from the nearby Wrekin hillfort), the Holy Grail was kept at Whittington Castle (some claim prehistoric settlement here), and Arthur was buried at The Berth near Baschurch, an Iron Age and Romano-British settlement.


Not mentioned within the Sunday Express article are some other prehistoric links, such as The Cauldron of Di-wrnach and Spoils of Annwn being in Caradoc's Cave under Caer Caradoc (Church Stretton), and Old Oswestry Hillfort being home to Guinevere. The Fridd Faldwyn hillfort, a few miles into Powys, is a mere four miles from the possible site of Arthur's death, at the battle of Camlann. This location is arguably linked by the name of the River Camlad. The river joins with the Severn, and thus is a vital area for river crossings with four fortifications from the Iron Age, Roman and Mediaeval periods.

The Sunday Express shows a picture of Graham Phillips with an Excalibur reconstruction, courtesy of Wilkinson Sword, at Mitchell's Fold, but does not name the location.

Whether it is just good publicity for Shropshire Tourism and Wilkinson Sword, or Arthur really lived and died in the county, exploring Shropshire's history and prehistory becomes even more interesting.

Note: For those coming on the Shropshire Megalithic Meet on Saturday & Sunday 11th & 12th June, there is a limited supply of the free brochures further detailing the Arthurian link with Shropshire.

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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by trogwatts on Sunday, 04 September 2011
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My father researched this very heavily, in the late eighties and early nineties. I remember site visits to Camlad in 94, before I finished my PPL at Welshpool, nearby. He published his research in the OU history mag a long long time ago, before he passed away in 1995. He was claiming Arthur at Wroxeter, in the late eighties / early nineties and, I believe, was one of the first, if not the first historian to place Camlann at Camlad confluence, which is described in the "Dream of Rhonabwy" and fits the bill due to the roman fording point in the river Severn, only a very short distance away! He refuted some of Phillips / Keatmans later claims, especially placing Arthur's resting place as the Berth at Baschurch - a Saxon (Bassas) stronghold and enemies of Arthur! He favoured the earthwork at Hawkstone (Now the Motocross Course area), a site that would have been surrounded by water and is a large site, as legend suggests. It is also in line of sight of Wroxeter and not too far away and has the nickname, "Arthurs Kingdom"! Payne Peveril was handed the estate after 1066 and was said to "Inherit Arthur's Kingdom". It is interesting that the consensus is veering towards his conclusions. Sadly, dad died before he could really pull all of his work together into a final concise publication. I still have some of his work. May the memory of Ronald Watts live on in his work. He was a good local historian and taught me loads, especially the simple point that, just because you have evidence that fits your hypothesis, it doesn't mean that your hypothesis fits the evidence!!! He may have been totally wrong, but sadly, given the lack of evidence from the period, conjecture may be necessary to reach a conclusion.

PS: If anyone has a copy of his original publication in the OU History Magazine, I would love a photocopy as I have never seen the original work.
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Thursday, 15 November 2007
I am sure that Pauline (Nanna) the author- does not mind my copying this -

WINWICK: ST. OSWALD'S WELL.

This well is about half a mile from St. Oswald's Church, Winwick, and three miles from Warrington.

In common with the one bearing the same name at Oswestry, it is said to mark the spot where St. Oswald fell when defending his kingdom against the attack of the fire-eating old tyrant, Penda, King of the Mercians. It is at Woodhead, near Winwick, situated in a field [85] on the Hermitage Farm, within a few yards of the lane, and presents a very modest appearance for so famous a spot, looking merely like a hole in the hill-side. Passing through a small cottage-garden, a well-trodden path leads to the well. The water is not very bright, but the well is substantially walled inside, and two or three deeply-worn steps lead to the water. On a recent visit a number of beautiful ferns were growing inside from the corners and sides of the slabs which cover in the water. Some of the stone-work thus used is grooved and carved in a manner which shows that at some period the well was protected, and by a handsome and substantial erection; but most of this was taken away many years ago, the existing rustic protection having been fixed up about twenty years ago by the present tenant of Hermitage Farm. Baines, in his History, speaks of Winwick as the true scene of Oswald's death, and urges in favour that Bede describes the well as being formed by the carrying away of earth by the people, thus making a deep hole, which was formed into a well, whilst the well at Oswestry is a clear sparkling spring. Not only was the earth carried away by pious people after his death, but for ages since, and even up to the present day the water has had ascribed to it wondrous healing powers, though to the irreverent mind it is very ordinary water to look at. By our reverential but superstitious forefathers the water was carried great distances and administered as a medicine in case of disease; and Bede relates several miracles which he had been informed were worked in the vicinity, and by earth or water taken from the well. At the present day there are people who use the water as a cure for sore eyes ; and if not used at the present time, certainly within the last twenty years it was used in the surrounding Catholic chapels. The 'Abbot's House' and 'Hermitage,' and other names, and the fact that at one time there was a considerable ecclesiastical establishment in the vicinity, sufficiently indicate the reverence in which our Catholic forefathers held the spot.
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Wednesday, 25 July 2007
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That's because no one can agree on were it was. If he was a battle leader of Gwynedd, then look for a map that gives an indication of Gwynedd of the 6th Century.
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Wednesday, 07 June 2006
i love this website but it does not give a map of his kingdom
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Tuesday, 04 April 2006
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We recently had the pleasure of being shown around the Berth by Ernie Jenks, an archaeologist who was invloved in the 60's dig. He was certainly animated when it came to the subject of the Berth and Arthur and Shropshire Tourist Boards bandwagon.

As he said, even the evidence for the Berth being reused in the 4th Century is scant and there was no evidnce what-so-ever of it being used at the time of Owain.

There is a chance that new archaeology will take place at the Berth and we'll know sometime in mid-April 2006. Maybe then we can answer this question once and for all!
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Monday, 13 June 2005
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There's another argument that Phillips and Keatman use for Owain being based at Wroxeter and buried at Baschurch that I think it needs looking at also. They site the ninth-century poem, 'The Song of Llywarch the Old' as mentioning both the burial site as being Baschurch and Wroxeter as being Camelot, or the court of Owain... therefore Camelot.

I'd like to draw attention to this poem and others. What follows is, I'm afraid, a long explanation and I will repeat things I've said elsewhere. It's taken from our on-line tour about the Berth and Wroxter...

Llys Pengwern was the late 6th and early 7th. Century court of Pengwern: a kingdom that split from Powys and incorporated part of what was the Cornovii's territory after they abandoned Viriconium... or so it is generally thought. This has been assigned to several modern day places in the area. "Pengwern", which if broken down into the two Welsh words of 'pen' and 'gwern' means "head of swamp or marsh", has been suggested to be: Wroxeter (Viriconium) - which makes no sense if they were suppose to have abandoned it. Shrewsbury itself - although there's no sign of settlement there until the 9th. Century. Bury Walls to the north of Shrewsbury and Whittington near Oswestry - which does fit the bill. But for me, the most interesting suggestion is that the Berth is Llys Pengwern.

'The Song of Heledd'

Cynddylan (pronounced something like "Kunthullan") was a king/prince of Pengwern at this time (early 7th. Century AD). We know of Cynddylan through the two poems written about him: 'Marwnad Cynddylan' (The Death Song of Cynddylan) and the 'Canu Heledd' (The Song of Heledd). The latter tells of his sister Heledd's lament at the destruction of the Kingdom of Pengwern and the killing of her brother and his family. Cynddylan had fought alongside King Penda of Mercia (Middle Angles) against the invading Northumbrians (Northern Angles), particularly at the Battle of Maes Cogwy (Oswestry). Here they killed their enemy, King Oswald (after whom Oswestry was named: "Oswald's Tree" - where he was hacked to bits). However, 14 years later, after Penda had popped his Angle clogs, Oswald's angry Angle brother, Oswiu, thought it was about time to revenge his brother's death. He attacked Llys Pengwern and Cynddylan was cut down with several of his brothers. He was said to be buried at 'eglwysseu bassa' - "the churches of Bassa". This being the case, it doesn't make sense that the Berth is both places: 'Llys Pengwern' and 'eglwysseu bassa'.

It's also mentioned that Llys Pengwern (or as it is actually called in the poems, Tren or Trenn) sat in "the white town by the alder wood" and this doesn't sound much like the Berth either. 'The Song of Heledd' says...

'Defending Tren, ravaged town...
White town between Tren and Rhodwydd,'

...and a 9th. Century poem called 'from The Elergy on Cynddylan' tells us...

'The white town in the breast of the wood, this is the symbol ever -
blood on the surface of its grass.
The white town in the land, its symbol is green graves, the blood
under the feet of its men.
The white town in the valley, glad is the kite at the bloodshed of
battle; its people have perished ...'

I've done some of my own research on these translations This started when I saw another translation of this poem that said "fair town" instead of "white town". There's a big difference between these and I wondered how this occurred so I went in search of the original. The original Brythonic says...

'Y drefwenn ym bronn y coet.
ysef y hefras eiryoet.
ar wyneb y gwellt y gwaet.
Y drefwenn yn y thywyr
y hefras yglas vyuyr.
y gwaet a dan draet y gwyr.
Y drefwenn yn y dyffrynt
llawen y bydeir wrth gyuamrud kat.
y gwerin neur derynt.
Y drefwenn rwng trenn a throdwyd.
– oed gnodach ysgwyt tonn. yn dyuot o gat
nogyt ych y echwyd.


Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Wednesday, 25 July 2007
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    I've had other thought on this subject recently and will puplish them as an article on the Portal in the near future.
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Thursday, 15 November 2007
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Thursday, 15 November 2007
    See this link -
    http://www.n-le-w.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=563&Itemid=1

    There are those of us who believe that Newton in Makerfield (was Maserfield) near Winwick was the place where St Oswald died.

    Put 'St Oswalds Well' into Google. We are on the borders of the old ancient kingdoms and the biggest ancient burial site found was actually found right here - near to St Oswalds Chruch Winwick.
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Saturday, 14 May 2011
    thanks for a very intresting article
    questions.......is there evidencde that baschurch existed then

    surely white refers to the fact that salters visited a place to sell their wares ie: whitchurch...Oswestry etc,
    ken smith
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by nicoladidsbury on Tuesday, 07 June 2005
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Being a northern lass I prefer this version, which has been beautifully researched, and has a powerful feeling of truth. Arthur and the Lost Kingdowms by Alistair Moffat.
Amazon Book review - Describing himself as an "amateur historian" Alistair Moffat delves into the history of his local area in lowland Scotland and discovers a possible new identity for the man behind the legends of King Arthur. He asserts that although Arthur's person and influence did reach southern Britain his base of power was in fact in the Scottish Borders. Arthur becomes crucial to the shaping of the Britain we know today and to the creation of a powerful Scotland which remained a nation for 1000 years even though his legend becomes associated with South-west England and Wales, thus masking the glories of Dark Age Celtic Scotland.
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Wednesday, 08 June 2005
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    Alistair Moffat's conclussion that Arthur was probably of the Votadini/Gododdin is the same as Steve Blake's. After all, the poem Y Gododdin is probably the earliest mention of him. The only difference is that Steve and Scott Llyod's research questions where the Votadini/Gododdin kingdom was and where the battle of Catreath happened. (I know there are some in Scotland who argue that Artorius is the bases of Arthur, but it hardly seems likely that a prince of the Scotti is going to become a hero of the Britons). I think the more research that goes in to who and where the Votadini were the closer we'll get to an answer... if that's possible.
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      Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Thorgrim on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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      When you talk of 5th century Scotland you have to be careful not to bring in the Scottii. They were still in Ireland and beginning to settle on the west coast of Scotland. However, at the same time, Cunedag from Manau Guotodin (Manau of Goddodin - British kingdom on the Forth) went south with his Votadini to reconquer Wales from other Irish invaders. The point that I'm keen to make is that people moved around Britain and took their legends and folk heroes with them. Arthur probably fought over a very wide area. Many of his battles were probably against other post-Roman British warlords in the north and in the west, but his fight against the incoming English must have been in the areas they were coming into. That means places like Catterick, Lincolnshire and the east coast in general. I remain convinced that the real resistance hero was Ambrosius. Gildas is the only near contemporary writer and he says nothing of Arthur. He does talk of Ambrosius and the decadence that came after him and he does imply that he was the victor of Badon.

      Ambrosius gave his name to Amesbury and to many other places in the south east (Essex/Herts) - all hillforts or defensive settlements. That was where the real resistance to the Saxons was. After their final defeat, many British settlements remained in the south-east, even around London (look for place names with a Wal element or a ***** element) Others went westwards and took their embroidered stories of a great resistance leader with them. Somehow Ambrosius Aurelanius became shortened to a nickname - Arthur "the Bear".
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        Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Thorgrim on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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        Significant that Gildas, Bede, Nennius and Geoffrey all give credit to Ambrosius as the British resistance leader.. see here
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          Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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          I think you're absolutley right about Ambrosius, but that's because I don't think Arthur was a king. Welsh writings call him a 'dux bellorum' or 'pen tueli' - a battle leader. If anything he was probably fighting for someone like Ambrosius.

          I only bring the Scotti into it because some Scots claim Artorius to be the bases of Arthur, which seems a little odd really.

          As for the Gododdin/Votadini, there is still no absolute proof of their Scottish origins. Even the etymology that says the word Gododdin comes from Votadini (Otadini as mentioned by Ptolemy c. 140) is extremely weak. To quote Steve's book:

          "It should also be noted that the phrase Manaw Gododdin only appears in a single instance in one manuscript, all other references being to either Manaw or Gododdin but never the two together."

          There are a number of references in ancient Welsh literature that place Manaw in Wales. One refering to a known Welsh king (d844) that says:

          "Mervyn Frych from the land of Manaw".

          So there is just as much litereary evidence for Manaw being either in North Wales or even the Isle of Man.

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        Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Friday, 18 November 2005
        It does seem that Ambrosius is the significant name that leaps out of those times. When I travel up the M5 and pass Bredon hill - an outlier of the Cotswolds I understand - I can't help my imagination running away with me that this is Badon. That a large force of Saxons came west to detroy the power of the sub-Roman kingdoms, driving Ambrosius until they met at Bredon Hill. But I am informed that Baddan near Bath is a better contender for Badon and that Bredon simply means 'Hill Hill'. There is so little information from those times that my conclusion is that we just do not know but as C.S.Lewis makes the point in 'That Hideous Strength' the whole legend of Arthur fits into the times by place names, personal names and national character.
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          Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Thorgrim on Friday, 18 November 2005
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          Yes, my money is on Ambrosius as the real Arthur which is a nickname possibly meaning "the Bear" and also possibly arising from a bear skin robe or head dress as worn by Roman standard bearers. Not certain about the Shropshire angle, but Ambrosius/Arthur had a wide ranging commission and fought all over Britain.The decisive battle of Badon is the key and I feel that it must be one of the heights around Bath. Badon is a Saxon term meaning Bath hill and "Bad" still means bath or spa in modern German place-names
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            Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Tuesday, 20 February 2007
            Bath makes no sense at all for the site of the battle of Badon. To get to Bath the Saxons would first have to get past Cirencester, Gloucester and Salisbury and there is no evidence that they penetrated this far until 577AD, well after the battle of Badon was fought.

            I agree about Ambrosius Aurelianus being the real hero of the piece but he may have been supported in his later battles by Arthur (maybe with Sarmatian heavy cavalry from Ribchester)
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          Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Thursday, 01 December 2005
          Skimming through the various comments I noticed the reference to Badon and Bredon and Hill. Just south of Shrewsbury there is an area named "Bayston Hill". Could this be what you are looking for? A stone's throw from Bayston Hill is a pool called Bomere Pool. I recall a long time ago hearing that this pool had some connection with King Arthur. Not being particulary knowledgeable on this subject I am unable to recall what the link referred too. Has anyone else heard anything similar?
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            Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Thorgrim on Thursday, 01 December 2005
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            The pool sounds like one of the many places identified as the location where Arthur received Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake. Or - where Bedevere returned it by throwing it into the water as Arthur lay mortally wounded. The last legend is very interesting because we know from hundreds of finds, that Iron Age swords were cast into lakes, bogs and rivers either as sacrifices or else on the death of their owners.. Some swords were even "killed" by being deliberately bent or broken and then thrown into the water.
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Thorgrim on Wednesday, 08 June 2005
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    Well I always thought that Catreath was Catterick in North Yorkshire and the Votadini were based around Berwick on Tweed according to the OS map of Roman Britain. Other Arthurian battles have been located in Lincolnshire. This puts Arthur in northern and eastern Britain and not the west as is generally supposed. The one simple fact which seems continually to escape the authors of Arthurian books is that the people who told the tales of Arthur would have been those people who retained their British culture and language the longest. That doesn't mean that Arthur only operated in Wales, Shropshire or Cornwall. Over in the east, the Anglo-Saxon takeover was far more rapid and complete. The language and the legends died out or were deliberately ignored by the incomers who just didn't want stories of a British folk hero around. So Arthurian folk tales and exploits survived in Wales, Cornwall, Strathclyde and Cumbria. Few people today realise that Cumbria and Cumberland actually mean the same as Cymru - ie the land of the Cymry - the pre Saxon native British - Arthur's people.

    I laugh when I read books that pretend that they have located Camelot -that was a medieval French literary invention along with Lancelot and all that stuff!
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      Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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      Catreath is generally assumed to be Catterick and the Votadini to be of the Scottish lowlands, but this is what Blake and Lloyd have challenged, amongst many other things. You'll have to read The Keys to Avalon to draw you're own conclussions.
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        Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by sem on Sunday, 12 June 2005
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        I don't know anything about this battle but from the name I suspect it took place on a beach. Treath is Cornish for beach and traeth in Welsh, so presumably they derive from the same source.
        As for the cat part, cad is Welsh for battle and the letter D can mutate to a T. Thus ca(d)treath = battle beach.
        Hope this confuses the situation even more.
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        Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Monday, 13 June 2005
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        Not at all sem, in fact this is the very same conclussion Blake and Lloyd came to. To quote their book again:

        "The name 'Catraeth' breaks down into two elements: 'cat' and 'traeth'. Sir John Rhys points out that 'cat' is cognate with 'cad', which means 'battle', and 'traeth' is still in modern usage, meaning 'shore' or 'beach'. Therefore 'Catreath' simply means the 'Battle Shore. However, Catterick in Yorshire is 50 miles inland!

        J. Gwenogfryn Evans draws our attention to 'the lands of Catraeth' in North Wales within a 12th-century poem by Elidir Sais: 'Gallas dreis ar direw catraeth' (able to take force the land of Catraeth). These lands were captured by Rodri ap Owain Gwynedd (d. 1195), who never left Wales yet waged many battles against his half-brother Dafydd on both the Menai Starits near Anglesey and the River Conwy. All the available evidence suggests that the lands of Catraeth lie somewhere along the North wales coast, possibly on an estuary. This is further confirmed be reference in The Gododdin to the battle taking place at Mordei, which menas that it took place near the sea ('mor' is Welsh for 'sea'."

        You can take or leave their findings but they're food for thought.
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          Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Monday, 13 June 2005
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          Sorry for all the spelling mistakes in that!

          Mak
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      Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Monday, 19 March 2007
      Hi all

      Thorgrim states:
      "I laugh when I read books that pretend that they have located Camelot -that was a medieval French literary invention along with Lancelot and all that stuff!"

      Dont laugh too loudly. The welsh triads also have tales of Lancelot. They call him LLachau, which is basically his epithet - from lach/loch lake. Now re-read the triads and see Lancelot du Lac.

      I know who Arthur was and Ambrosius, Mordred, Uther and Vortigern. I am currently writing up my findings. Arthur was not anyone that has been considered before. The whole line of Constantine and the imaginary Uther and Arthur were later additions after GOM. These were put in because by the 12th C no one knew who the real Arthur and Uther were. I would love to tell all but I have to be patient and write up the book and my findings. I have a hell of a lot of research to do yet.

      The lines of Magnus Maximus are also wishful thinking. There was another Maximus who Kynan may be tied to and one that places him in the early 5th C not the late 4th.

      I have found so much. Arthur was not from Shropshire, but he did fight his wars for his Welsh relatives and so would have fought in Shropshire, Wales, Bernicia, Reged, and north of the Wall. He would have fought at Badon as a miles militis : soldier, warrior or knight , under the leadership of Ambrosius his cousin the King. Although at this time 493 he would have been a sub king or Lord as he inherited his kingdom in about 479/480 when he was still a youth of 15/16 but had not as yet claimed it. So of the three definitions I would make him a Royal Knight. He was most likley Magister Equitum, leader of Horse or Knights, a term translated into the welsh as `Pen Dragon'.

      Regards
      Danep
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by sem on Tuesday, 07 June 2005
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Has anyone read "The Holy Kingdom" by Adrian Gilbert, fronting the research by AlanWilson and Baram Blackett? This places Arthur in South Wales. I haven't checked the web on it but the book is damn good reading.
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    Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Thursday, 09 June 2005
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    Hi Sem,

    This book seems very plaisible, doesn't it? However, I feel compelled to let you know of the following:

    Their book was vanity published.

    They were charged with desecrating ancient sites, church's and theft of protected artefacts and planting evidence on land owned by themselves.

    Anyone who disagrees with them either gets accused of conspiracy or have even been threatned.

    They say there is a conspiracy against them by the government, Police, CADW, the university system, the Pendragon society and the Welsh Tourist Board.

    Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd (authors of two Arthurian books) have been verbally attacked and accused of conspiring against them. When Blake and Lloyd challenge them to an open debate they were refused but it was then said that it was Blake and Lloyd who wouldn't enter into a debate on their website.

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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by Anonymous on Tuesday, 07 June 2005
e mail [email protected] you want to know why there is a mystery surrounding the arthurian legend as a child I was able to speak to old wise people and have some interesting facts all of which will relate to the book of Kells and old kernow hand me downs will talk further if you can email me Maabs Wheaton thanks bye for now!
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Re: Forget Cornwall, King Arthur ruled from Shropshire by VirtHist on Monday, 06 June 2005
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Hi Tim,

As you know I used to be convinced about Phillips and Keatman's arguments for Owain as the figure behind Arthur, but not anymore. Since becoming a colleague with Steve Blake of the Centre for Arthurian and Related Studies I have learnt a great deal more about the period and the historical figures of the time and become more convinced with the arguments put forward in his books, 'Keys to Avalon' and 'Pendragon'. There are many question to be asked about Phillips and Keatman’s finding...

Why, unlike any other ruler, did Owain become known by his 'nickname' 'The Bear' - or 'Artus', as they suggest? This in itself would be wrong, as in Brythonic this would be 'yr art' and in Latin 'Arturius'. Why, when the Welsh texts - the source of it all - only calls Arthur a 'dux belorum' - 'leader of battles' - are they looking for a king? Arthur was made a king by Geoffrey of Monmouth for political or literary reasons and even his contemporary, William of Malmsbury, critised Geoffrey for what he'd turned Wales' hero in to. Why look for a sword in the stone site when this was a later Romance addition along with Camelot? Why say Whittington could be the Grail site when there is no tradition of it there, unlike sites such as Castell Dinas Bran and Valle Crucis Abbey. (Whittington has a stronger case for being Llys Pengwern). Most importantly, why do they say Owain was a king of both Gwynedd and Powys as if this is fact; he was a king of Gwynedd and Rhôs - a sub-kingdom of Gwynedd? The connection that says Gwynedd also ruled Powys at the time is the grave of 'Cunorix' found at Wroxeter. This has been linked with Cunedda of Gwynedd. That is indeed plausible but not proven and if he was buried in Powys then it's possible that Owain was, but why plump for the Berth as 'the churches of Bassa' when there have been no findings beyond the 4th Century there? (Whilst I have always wished my local village of Baschurch to be ‘the churches of Bassa’ I’m not so convinced now). If Cunorix was buried at Wroxeter, there'd be more chance of Owain being buried there too. Also, if he was a king of Rhôs he would most likely to have been buried in 'that' region. I now think it more likely that Basingwerk was the site for 'the churches of bassa'. (Notice it's plural, so there was more than one church). The fact that a Norman abbey was built on the site gives it even more validity.

I was interested to see Graham's map of Britain for 500AD at his website...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/yvan.cartwright/Trail/2_Historical_Arthur.htm

It's a little different from any other I've seen...

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/500_kingdoms.html

...and makes Powys out to be the dominant kingdom when it was Gwynedd that may have been the ruler of Powys.

If the dating of the origins of the epic poem Y Gododdin to the 6th Century are correct, then this is the first mention of Arthur in a somewhat throw-away reference. He's called 'Arthur' and not Artus or Arturius. This has caused confusion because it's etymology doesn't seem to be purely Brythonic. No one can be sure how it came about. It may not be 'art-hur' but 'ar-thur' or 'arth-ur'. Either way it causes problems.

Everyone has looked for a candidate for Arthur because Gildas doesn’t mention him and Geoffrey of Monmouth made him a king. Since in the Welsh tradition Arthur was never said to be a king there’s no reason why Gildas should mention him.

This, of course, doesn't mean that the historical Arthur didn't have anything to do with Shropshire. There is a great chance he did. After all, it was part of Wales/Cymru/Britannia at the time. If Gwynedd encompassed Powys then this was his domain and Wroxeter a part of his world but I don’t think it was any Camelot. If Camelot has any bases there are other sites with far better credentials, such as Monmouth. If Arthur was a batt

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