Featured: Ark of Secrets - Neolithic spirit alive in the Middle Ages

Ark of Secrets - Neolithic spirit alive in the Middle Ages

The Ancient Celts, Barry Cunliffe

The Ancient Celts, Barry Cunliffe

Who's Online

There are currently, 409 guests and 3 members online.

You are a guest. To join in, please register for free by clicking here

Sponsors

Moderated by : davidmorgan , Andy B , Klingon , bat400 , sem , Runemage , TheCaptain

The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >> Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries >> Cremation and Inhumation
New  Reply
AuthorCremation and Inhumation
sem



Joined:
12-11-2003


Messages: 2806
from Bridgend,S.Wales

OFF-Line

 Posted 16-01-2019 at 20:29   
“Norman Stockdale and myself felt that there were possible set units of time for burials, differing if either inhumations, (lunar) or cremations (solar). The reason we felt lunar and solar for possible funerary rites was that in some burials, inhumations, there appears to be a pot that could possibly have contained water. The later Celtic links to burials and rituals involving water are well known.
The cremation is an obvious link to fire and solar.
This is speculative as I have said before but we considered that some barrows appear to have had a definite time span for usage and then are closed. As such the number of bodies contained in the barrows may give some pointers, including measurements, as to time units and astronomy.”
I’ve used the quote above with permission from STOCKDALE and from his HSMF thread, to start this discussion.
The units of time that STOCKDALE suggests are every 4930 days for cremations and every 8940 days for burials (approximately 13.5 years and 24.5years respectively). This is of course entirely different to the suggestion, but does not preclude rituals taking place at set times of the year.
There seems to be evidence for bones being curated before finally being interred but I am not aware of evidence for curation before cremation, anyway I am not sure if it is possible to use any form of dating for the latter. Conversely, Stonehenge seems to have been a cremation cemetery and primarily dedicated to the moon before becoming principally solar. So there is some basic evidence on both sides.
This post is purely speculative but Stockdale’s idea appeals to me. Any thoughts anyone?





 Profile   Reply
STOCKDALE



Joined:
11-11-2015


Messages: 1016
OFF-Line

 Posted 17-01-2019 at 11:26   
I would like first of all to thank Sem for creating this thread.

I certainly don't want to dominate it with numbers and measurements, which can be pursued on my HSMF thread. But I would like to point out that I agree fully with Sem`s comments re Stonehenge being primarily Lunar based then Solar.

Norman Stockdale and myself bearing this in mind focussed very much on the Aubrey Holes re the cremations, the 56 holes, and other burial sites such as the West Kennet barrow. We looked not only to the archaeology and architecture of these sites, measurements and orientations, numbers and types of burials, but also to the thoughts of people like Michael Dames on possible ritualistic proceedings that may have taken place.

The significance of the value of 13.5, relates to both the sun and moon, the 18.6 year Moon Cycle and the 365.25 day Solar.

All I would say at this stage, as can be found in our booklet on the HSMF, is that the circumference of the Aubrey Holes, through their midpoints, is 756 HSMF.
Divided by the 56 Aubrey Holes gives a value of 13.5.

Our thoughts on whether graves had preconceived lengths of time for usage, whether there were ritualistic burials at specific times of year or over specific time periods, we could only speculate. But I do hope this thread can bring forward information and thoughts on the differing burial rituals.

Thanks again to Sem for creating this thread.







 Profile   Reply
Orpbit



Joined:
24-06-2012


Messages: 1551
from Shropshire

OFF-Line

 Posted 17-01-2019 at 18:16   
It seems to me that there is little point in investigating lunar and solar links, after death, unless there is some purpose to it. For example belief in "resurrection". But if this is the case then both would, to me, appear too short. They would need to be linked to longer time cycles, and if we are also talking stellar influences then "precessional" time scales (or knowledge, suspicion of, long time scales) come into the frame.

So to progress, outside of speculating significances arising out of your current calculations, is to consider other possibilities, put them all into a broader framework, and then see whether the "numbers" extend into it, or are constrained within the Lunar/Solar loops.




 Profile   Reply
STOCKDALE



Joined:
11-11-2015


Messages: 1016
OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 10:16   
Hello Richard. I think I need to ask you to clarify, with examples if possible, what you mean.

My take on events, speculation admittedly, is that for example at West Kennet, the designers knew in advance how many burials there would be; possibly knowing whether cremations or inhumations would be used. Then on the basis of this knowledge they would design, through measurement, based on key time/astronomical values.

I curse myself for not being able to put my hands on the detailed drawings that Norman Stockdale made showing in particular the structure of West Kennet in relation to lengths of the passageway, side chambers, mound, height etc. Including what appeared to be the number of bodies interned. If memory serves correctly I believe the 18.6 value was prominent. I will get back to you if I can find the measurements.

Finally the 13.5 year, 4930 days figure we supposed could have been used as a time cycle for cremations, was more than the 13.5 x 13.5 x 2 = 364 days in a solar year. It also coincided with the value of pi. 314 x 15.7 = 4929.8.

Coincidence? Possibly. But by looking at various barrows and other funerary evidence I know that it strengthened Norman's belief in the HSMF. Unfortunately this evidence, unless I am mistaken, has been disposed of or packed away somewhere following Norman's untimely death.




 Profile   Reply
STOCKDALE



Joined:
11-11-2015


Messages: 1016
OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 10:21   

The construction of the West Kennet Long Barrow commenced about 3600 BC, which is some 400 years before the first stage of Stonehenge, and it was in use until around 2500 BC. The mound has been damaged by indiscriminate digging, but archaeological excavations in 1859 and 1955-56 found at least 46 burials, ranging from babies to elderly persons. The bones were disarticulated with some of the skulls and long bones missing. It has been suggested that the bones were removed periodically for display or transported elsewhere. Recent re-analysis of the dating evidence suggests that the 46 people all died within 20 – 30 years of each other, but that the tomb was open for 1,000 years.

The latest excavations also revealed that the side chambers occur inside an exact isosceles triangle, whose height is twice the length of its base.




 Profile   Reply
cropredy



Joined:
01-01-2006


Messages: 7171
from Oxon

OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 17:38   
As with all of these sites and the pyramids, they are remnants of a forgotten time and knowledge.

Presently many are focussing upon these sites and objects found at them, and a remembering is occurring.

I have been to West kennet long barrow multiple times, and followed both the geometries detectable there and interlinked with Silbury hill and other near by sites, and the flows of consciousness travelling upon that geometry.


I have a knowing relative to these sites , obtained by focussing upon them.


IMHO,


Timing was central with the sun and moon and their geometric locations , this geometry is precise relative to their locations and exact designs.


Then consciousness is found to be variant in directions and reversals relative to the sun and moons locations.
I consider both birth and death were celebrated and were overseen by the shaman.
A knowledge of eternal life existed where they knew how to return into new bodies at these sites with exact timings involved.



Kevin




 Profile   Reply
STOCKDALE



Joined:
11-11-2015


Messages: 1016
OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 17:46   
Kevin, in view of your close connection to West Kennet, are you then able to tell me how many people were buried there and for how long the tomb was used?




 Profile   Reply
cropredy



Joined:
01-01-2006


Messages: 7171
from Oxon

OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 18:35   
WKLB,

Was not for "Burying"

As were not the pyramids.

I sense much older than assumed.

We presently fear death, to our ancestors observing nature no thing dies, a continual transformation occurs.

Once I became attuned with consciousness, and could follow it , a knowing comes with that, which defies explanation, and the central comprehension is the reversal of implosion over outrush, and how the geometry ( which has measure) is a FIXED grid that enables consciousness to flow in spin about the geometry ( if You have any comprehension of TIG welding, then the high voltage carrier wave allows a higher amperage wave to travel on it, otherwise it will disperse)

The main chamber at WKLB is central to the flows that travel along the main access of the barrow which flow around Silbury hill ( it is a resistance construction to stop consciousness imploding into the Earth under it)


The side chambers are self similar but relative to other locations ( one been so called silbaby)

There is a finite point ( where gold lozenge would have been placed upon) in the main chamber and each of the side chambers.

There the skull and thigh bones would have been placed, as carriers of the deceased eternal soul.

Then when a newly impregnated female was ready, She would have been placed on that location as and when the implosion reversed to outrush.

Return into a new vehicle.


Kevin




 Profile   Reply
Orpbit



Joined:
24-06-2012


Messages: 1551
from Shropshire

OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 21:50   
Peter, what I meant - and said less than clearly! - is that it is one thing looking at the architecture and concluding design principles which involve lunar and solar cycle inputs. It is another matter as to what they would have been used for in terms of the "belief" systems existing at the respective times. And these belief systems, if astronomically connected, may well have involved stellar deities, in addition to the divine nature of Sun and Moon, and a whole range of interplay between them.

I can't go into a wide range of examples, because those are a part of an area of investigation which may be heralded by publication of aspects of my research at Stonehenge. The following perhaps might give you a clue:

1) Aker:

Various images and their links here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=aker+god+of+the+underworld&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVupr_lPjfAhXmShUIHRtXDNgQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1280&bih=920

The wiki link here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_(deity)

So we have a god linked with the Sun and with time, variably "past" and "present", "yesterday" and "today", and/or "yesterday" and "tomorrow". He was the God of the "horizon" with various roles.

2) And the "Aker" on the horizon as seen from Mitchell's Fold, (apologies for the large image - specific ones are on my other computer, and this is the only one I can immediately link to my Flickr store)



Note the comparison of the features on the Stiperstones Ridge to the Egyptian Aker. The right hand of the two is known as the "Lion Rock", which is Cranberry Rock, otherwise, and in front of it is the Equinox location, as I've illustrated with my horizon calibration image posted elsewhere, but repeated below (the two green images).



I've studied my local area a great deal, and much more still to do, but this is beyond discussing here for various reasons, not the least because you also know my priorities at the moment! In a nutshell, the study theme is "Regional" relationships between archaeological features, and I have a set of three presentation slides which I used for talks, to illustrate. They haven't been uploaded to Flickr as yet so I can't illustrate further at this moment.

The main theme is the "God" as being the carrier of souls to wherever the cultural belief at the time was regarded as the place of continued existence outside of this Earth, either for eternity, or in waiting to be reborn on Earth at a particular time related to what I referred to as "precession", i.e. a particular time in the future when the certain conditions of synchrony (perhaps astronomical conjunctions) between celestial markers occured.

So for somewhere, like West Kennet Long Barrow it may have been the "port" at which the deceased soul "boards" the vessel of the deity to take it on its journey. In other words, like cemeteries of today, they are meant to be "permanent" places of transport to the destination, open to anyone priveleged enough to be allowed access. Hence the longevity of the structure - for periodic internment of whoever could afford it, or reserved specifically for a particular family or families in particular public offices etcetera.

So architecture is one thing, but purpose may be altogether far more complicated, and not necessarily solely related to lunar and solar cycles.

Don't know if this helps, but as sem said, and my links on your HSMF thread revealed, this is a huge subject in its own right. I've personally only lightly scraped the surface.

Cheers






[ This message was edited by: Orpbit on 2019-01-18 21:55 ]

[ This message was edited by: Orpbit on 2019-01-19 07:18 ]




 Profile   Reply
STOCKDALE



Joined:
11-11-2015


Messages: 1016
OFF-Line

 Posted 18-01-2019 at 23:01   
Much appreciated Richard. I understand absolutely your priorities and welcome the links. It clearly is a massive area to research.

Unfortunately apart from Kevin, little knowledge or interest seems to be being forwarded on this thread of Sem`s. A pity really. Even if we could get some general comments re funerary practice or links, I personally would be pleased.

Thanks again.




 Profile   Reply
New  Reply
Jump To

Sponsors