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<< Our Photo Pages >> Mumbles Erratic - Natural Stone / Erratic / Other Natural Feature in Wales in West Glamorgan

Submitted by Andy B on Friday, 11 February 2022  Page Views: 3337

Natural PlacesSite Name: Mumbles Erratic Alternative Name: Limeslade Bay erratic, Purported Stonehenge-style Bluestone (Unspotted Dolerite)?
Country: Wales County: West Glamorgan Type: Natural Stone / Erratic / Other Natural Feature
 Nearest Village: Mumbles
Map Ref: SS6241986997
Latitude: 51.565017N  Longitude: 3.986323W
Condition:
5Perfect
4Almost Perfect
3Reasonable but with some damage
2Ruined but still recognisable as an ancient site
1Pretty much destroyed, possibly visible as crop marks
0No data.
-1Completely destroyed
 no data Ambience:
5Superb
4Good
3Ordinary
2Not Good
1Awful
0No data.
 2 Access:
5Can be driven to, probably with disabled access
4Short walk on a footpath
3Requiring a bit more of a walk
2A long walk
1In the middle of nowhere, a nightmare to find
0No data.
 1 Accuracy:
5co-ordinates taken by GPS or official recorded co-ordinates
4co-ordinates scaled from a detailed map
3co-ordinates scaled from a bad map
2co-ordinates of the nearest village
1co-ordinates of the nearest town
0no data
 4

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Mumbles Erratic
Mumbles Erratic submitted by Mountainman : Photographer Phil Holden has discovered a massive glacial erratic which looks to be some kind of dolerite. It is to be analysed for its possible connection to Stonehenge. Photo Copyright Brian John Not to be re-used without permission (Vote or comment on this photo)
Brian John writes: Phil Holden is a professional photographer and 'hunts' for interesting erratics, amongst other things. He has discovered a massive glacial erratic, which took me by surprise, but I think it is very important. In my view this discovery is of huge importance to Ice Age research in South Wales and the debate about the origins and transport of the Stonehenge bluestones. But let's start at the beginning...

Phil wanders this coast very frequently, and says he looked at this erratic several times, on a number of visits, before realising that it was is different indeed from the Carboniferous Limestone bedrock. He was attracted by both the colouring of the rock, and its texture, and realised that it was very similar to a dolerite rock sample he collected many years ago from Foel Eryr, near the western end of Mynydd Preseli.

He took some high definition photos, and asked me to take a look. I was fairly convinced that he was right in assuming the greenish rock to be unspotted dolerite. He also asked Dr Katie Preece, an igneous rock specialist working at the Swansea University Geography Dept, to take a look, and on the basis of visual inspection she confirmed the rock as dolerite or micro-gabbro. It was similar to the Foel Eryr sample, but the crystal sizes were different. Whether that proves significant, time will tell. Further work is in the pipeline, so watch this space.

Last Sunday afternoon there was a low tide, and the weather was dry and calm - so I hopped into the car and drove over to The Mumbles at high speed. Phil and I took a good look at the giant erratic and at some of the nearby coastal exposures. I became even more convinced that the erratic was made of unspotted greenish dolerite, and we compared the boulder surface with a number of unspotted dolerite samples that I just happened to have in my rucksack. In close-up my garden sample looks a bit greener, and the giant erratic looks a bit bluer - but that may be a trick of the light.

Brian John continues: The presence of this erratic (if it identifies as we propose) shows that the glacial transport of the Stonehenge bluestones was not just possible but - to me - probable. Archaeologists and some geologists have previously assumed that it would have been "impossible" for glacier ice to transport large boulders, pillars and slabs of dolerite from North Pembrokeshire, or anywhere else, up the Bristol Channel towards Somerset and Stonehenge.

Many smaller dolerite erratics are known from Gower and other parts of South Wales, but there have been no discoveries to compare with the "giant erratics" that are known from the coasts of Devon and Cornwall. Phil’s very exciting discovery demonstrates that the glacier did indeed transport large blocks of rock south-eastwards from their source areas. There must be other erratics of this size awaiting discovery along the South Wales coast, but unfortunately most of them are likely to be located under the murky waters of the Bristol Channel."

This discovery should force the archaeologists to ask themselves how reliable their evidence really is for the huge narrative they have built around the bluestones, involving quarries, mighty haulage expeditions and lost circles.

But I'm not getting over-excited. This is just the start of a long journey, and clearly samples from this boulder will need to be subjected to a whole range of analytical techniques before we can be sure what the provenance really is.

Brian has more on his blog.

SAFETY NOTE: The boulder is in a very dangerous position around mid-tide mark, and great care is needed especially when the rocks are wet and slippery.

Note: Further updates since this was first announced, more on our page
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Mumbles Erratic
Mumbles Erratic submitted by MyrisoffAlexandria : The basic igneous erratic from Limeslade Bay Photo by "A competent Welsh glaciologist." (4 comments - Vote or comment on this photo)

Mumbles Erratic
Mumbles Erratic submitted by MyrisoffAlexandria : A photo showing that a rock sample has been taken from the erratic. (Vote or comment on this photo)

Mumbles Erratic
Mumbles Erratic submitted by MyrisoffAlexandria : Limeslade Bay erratic location. From Dr John's photograph it was a simple task to find the erratic. The headland in the distance is distinctive. SAFETY NOTE: The boulder is in a very dangerous position around mid-tide mark, and great care is needed especially when the rocks are wet and slippery. (1 comment - Vote or comment on this photo)

Do not use the above information on other web sites or publications without permission of the contributor.

Nearby Images from Geograph Britain and Ireland:
SS6287 : Limeslade Bay by Alan Hughes
by Alan Hughes
©2019(licence)
SS6287 : Wales Coast Path leaving Mumbles by Eirian Evans
by Eirian Evans
©2019(licence)
SS6287 : Looking west across Limeslade Bay, the Mumbles by David Smith
by David Smith
©2018(licence)
SS6287 : The Mumbles : Wales Coast Path by Lewis Clarke
by Lewis Clarke
©2017(licence)
SS6287 : Limeslade Bay by Mick Lobb
by Mick Lobb
©2010(licence)

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"Mumbles Erratic" | Login/Create an Account | 22 News and Comments
  
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by Anonymous on Thursday, 16 November 2023
Hi,

Just a thought..

Swansea Bay was apparently looking a lot different 5000 years ago. With forests of Oak & Hazel woods in the bay populated by dear.

The remains of tree stumps can still be seen at very low tide & the black sediments in the sand from that time we know locally as "grannys custard".

I was surprised to find a cave very close to the stone.

Once inside the cave looking out you have a magical view of the cave entrance & sea along with a small hole above the entrance where you can see the sky.

If the above is accurate, then imagine that time 5000 years ago maybe the stone was originally a standing stone near the cave entrance. It would of been a magical place but then all of Wales is.

The stone could of been a washed up standing stone from further out in what was previously dry land. The stone is obviously stuck in its current position at the moment. Maybe this is why its quite a recent find.

Across Swansea bay in the Margam area we also have standing stones.

Just a thought :)
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Monday, 14 August 2023
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At long last we have some results for the Limeslade erratic -- about 18 months after the original discovery by Phil Holden. The delays in the analytical work were for reasons entirely out of our control, notwithstanding assorted comments from conspiracy theorists. The petrography and geochemistry work now seems to confirm earlier impressions from Prof Peter Kokelaar and others that the erratic has not come from Mynydd Preseli but from some other igneous outcrop, possibly in NW Pembrokeshire. As we commented earlier, this is the biggest Irish Sea Glacier erratic found thus far on the South Wales coast, confirming that on at least one occasion the ice stream was powerful enough to transgress the southern coast of Gower and to press into the inner reaches of the Bristol Channel.

https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.com/2023/08/the-limeslade-erratic-boulder-probably.html>
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Mumbles Erratic by Anonymous on Sunday, 05 June 2022
Way back in January we were promised lab results and thin section analysis.

No self-respecting lab takes six months to process a couple of samples.

Since then nothing.What is being supressed?



Why the silence it is deafening.
[ Reply to This ]

Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Tuesday, 15 February 2022
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Update.
Following the description of the boulder surface (from a visual inspection) by Prof Peter Kokelaar we have now updated our Interim Report:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358426131_A_newly_discovered_giant_erratic_at_Limeslade_Gower_Peninsula_Interim_Report

Contrary to rumours, we are blithely unconcerned about where the boulder has come from. It is not spotted dolerite, so it has not come from a spotted dolerite tor on Preseli. It might have come from one of the igneous intrusions on the North Pembrokeshire coast. We shall see. The sample is currently being analysed, and when the work is complete it will be published by a "competent geologist".
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by morgannwg on Saturday, 12 February 2022
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Agree with the comment that all data is interesting. The only axe i would grind is this. I don't care who turns out to be right, but Stonehenge, and the Preseli hills and watersheds, are two extensive neolithic landscapes. Like regional capitals, they have a core, and areas radiating off this like wheel spokes. Search the OS Explorer map for the Preselis https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk. Or Coflein, the Welsh historic site https://coflein.gov.uk. Highlight every Neolithic site ( there will, of course, be later sites as well, as continuity of usage). Massive evidence of mass human activity using stones exists. The ancient monuments site lists them too. https://rcahmw.gov.uk. Looking at these megopolitic built environments we see evidence from the structures a phased intentionality to create clusters of massive structures. As an outlier the Mumbles erratic is a lovely find. Be good to see what its testing reveals. Finally, we need a lot more data on the severn coastal areas of activity around 3900BCE. Any underwater archaeologists around?
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by MyrisoffAlexandria on Friday, 11 February 2022
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The erratic has been visited by an independant geologist. It is of great value to see the exact collection site and dimensions of the sample.

He writes

This is simply my petrological field observation. I have an interest in Gower and I visited the Limeslade erratic yesterday afternoon. It is a metamorphosed coarse dolerite (not quite gabbro), sparsely porphyritic with oscillatory-zoned euhedral and subhedral plagioclase phenocrysts mostly ~0.5 cm and up to 1 cm; dark patches could be (altered) ophitic pyroxenes. The rock shows sub-parallel feldspathic banding roughly perpendicular to the long axis (2.2m) of the boulder. I guesstimate (only) from the rounded crudely triangular dimensions that it weighs roughly 4 tonnes. A small tapered sample appears to have been taken from the lower northeast corner. From the boulder it appears that this sample will be somewhat weathered and unlikely to be big enough for robust representative whole-rock analyses. It would be a shame to smash a larger lump off this fine, rounded item, and perhaps refilled cores from a hidden place would be best for conservation purposes, if further sampling is deemed necessary/warranted.

I am neither archaeologist nor Pembs aficionado, so I am not going to enter the ‘debate’. I only suggest that from my limited experience the boulder is an erratic and would be consistent with derivation from the Lower Palaeozoic of north Pembs. The banding perpendicular to the ‘columnar’ length is fairly typical of some coarsely jointed sills I have mapped between Fishguard and St David’s Head.

I write the following


We shall await the results, I fear disappointment but live in hope.

Ironically the only thing that can be said with certainty now, firmly established by the extraction scar, is that the erratic is NOT preselite from the Preseli Hills- the most abundant rock type of the Stonehenge bluestones as there is not a spot on site or in sight.-, so it is not a spotted dolerite, hence eliminating it from the established source area for the Stonehenge orthostats and suggested quarries.

But all data are useful and we must all await the results.
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Tuesday, 08 February 2022
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Update
This site lies within a protected area, and there are management / access issues. Having contacted the local authority and other bodies with a “nature conservation” interest, and having admitted to them that the precise position of the boulder has now been published, a couple of our respondents expressed regret about that, but admitted that they could not prevent members of the public from hunting for the boulder, and hoped that nobody would wish to damage it. But we are where we are, and must move on.

We have two samples from the boulder. We have been fortunate enough to receive sufficient financial support to pay for professional laboratory analyses, and the work is in hand. The results of the tests will be reported in a peer-reviewed journal in due course.

Quaternary studies colleagues who have been consulted about this find are both amazed and intrigued. They all confirm that it is the only known Irish Sea Glacier “giant erratic” on the South Wales coast, and they are fully aware of its significance.
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by MyrisoffAlexandria on Friday, 04 February 2022
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Déjà vu.
In August 1996 during a very low tide three dark green rocks were collected from the beaches of Steep Holm in the Bristol Channel. In an extravagant press release taken up by the media Rodney Legg suggested that they were Stonehenge bluestones that were lost during their trans-shipment from Wales to England. A request to receive and identify the rocks was immediately granted and hand specimen and microscopical petrographical investigation by Drs Ixer and Bevins showed two to be metamorphic green, fine-grained meta-basic rocks and the third a coarse-grained altered amphibolite. All three rocks are unlike anything found within the Stonehenge Landscape or from the Preseli Hills or belonging to any of the established polished stone axe groups. They are glacial erratics possibly from Wales although Welsh rocks of this type are uncommon.
Three years later Mr Legg claimed a fourth fragment had also been found at the same time as the others and that it “has been confirmed as coming from an undressed Preseli boulder”. When challenged to provide the rock for analysis and/or to identify the authenticator of the rock there was and still is complete silence. Dr Ixer publically stated he was not the authenticator writing “like St Thomas until I can touch and see for myself this bluestone ….I will not believe that any stone from Steep Holm has any more connection with Stonehenge than the Hanging Gardens of Babylon”.
In January 2022 Dr John issued a press release with the intended eye-catching title “missing piece of the Stonehenge bluestone puzzle” and further claims…… these should be tested.
“A giant bluestone erratic just discovered near Mumbles, on the south Gower coast, has been hailed as one of the most important glacial discoveries of the last century since it proves beyond doubt that the Irish Sea Glacier was capable of carrying large monoliths of dolerite rock from Pembrokeshire up the Bristol Channel towards Stonehenge”.
Ignoring the amusing question hailed by whom, other than Dr John, much is accurate, the large dark coloured probable igneous erratic was moved by ice, but from whence. If the rock is a dolerite then the Preseli Hills are possible (Dr John’s favoured origin), but more likely the igneous rock is from Skomer Island/Ramsey Island/St Davids Head area, as are other glacial erratics found in South Wales (as described for example by Drs Bevins and Donnelly in their account of the Pencoed erratics).
It would be unjust not to mention that ‘important glacial discoveries of the last century’ include detailed Pleistocene stratigraphy, the use of ice cores and microfossils to give precise chronostratigraphy and much, much more. An erratic find, however gross, is no more than that.
Later Dr John’s press release states
“Many smaller dolerite erratics are known from Gower and other parts of South Wales, but there have been no discoveries to compare with the “giant erratics” that are known from the coasts of Devon and Cornwall.”
Strangely, Dr John has forgotten, does not know, or chooses to discount that three giant erratics were documented in the Bridgend Geological Survey Memoir in 1904 within the Vale of Glamorgan (to the east of the Mumbles hence closer to Stonehenge) with Bevins and Donnelly (1992) noting that they are similar to ignimbrite exposed on Ramsey Island.
Hence the occurrence of these rare large erratics (probably less than half a dozen have been found in the whole of South Wales during 120 years of searching) has been known within both the geological and archaeological communities for more than a century and their significance, or rather lack of it, recognised. The Mumbles’ glacial erratic is another of these very rare occurrences and adds little to any glacial history of South Wales/southern England and potentially nothing to any archaeological one.
Indeed it should be argued that the rarity of these large erratics can only be used to confirm the anthropogenic movement of the

Read the rest of this post...
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    Re: Mumbles Erratic by Aluta on Friday, 04 February 2022
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    What an informed and thoughtful comment. Thank you.
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    Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Saturday, 05 February 2022
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    Dr Ixer is very welcome to his opinions, and readers will no doubt be aware that he is not exactly an impartial observer, having long since nailed his flag to the "human transport mast" along with other colleagues in Mike Parker Pearson's research team. He has a great deal to lose from any reinforcement of the glacial transport hypothesis, and I am not at all surprised that he should seek to minimise the importance of this new discovery.

    I'm not aware of any proper publication of any data from Steep Holm, but I am not surprised at the presence of erratic boulders or smaller stones there. There are after all erratics from the west on Flat Holm as well.

    In flagging up the importance of the Mumbles erratic there will be nothing that surprises Quaternary specialists -- they are all perfectly aware of the traces of glaciation (till, fluvioglacial deposits and erratics) around the shores of the Bristol Channel. The "giant erratics" referred to by the geologists of the Geological Survey in 1904 have, as far as I know, been lost without trace and never properly analysed, but the Pencoed "boulders" are of course well known. They all contribute to the same story -- of Irish Sea Glacial ice pressing eastwards up the Bristol Channel, capable of transporting large masses of rock. And yet Mike Parker Pearson, who leads the team to which Dr Ixer belongs, still insists, whenever asked, that the glacial transport hypothesis is "dead in the water"...........

    The press release issued a week ago is aimed at those who do not read the specialist Quaternary literature, and at archaeologists and members of the public who may have convinced themselves that the narrative perpetrated by Parker Pearson is not opinion, but established fact.

    When it comes to glacial erratics, as with crystals contained within rock, we see what we are trained to see. When I look at the abraded and weathered slabs and boulders of the bluestone circle at Stonehenge, I see erratics. I am not sure what Dr Ixer sees -- maybe quarried pillars? When I look at Rhosyfelin and Carn Goedog, I see natural rock outcrops, while he, presumably, sees Neolithic quarries. When I consider the 30 or so "rock types" at Stonehenge in the bluestone assemblage, and the wide scatter of such materials across the landscape, I see possible evidence of a very ancient glaciation. And I see no evidence whatsoever to support the human transport hypothesis, whereas I presume that Dr Ixer does. Such is life.

    I appreciate that Dr Ixer has helped me to identify certain rock samples in the past, as I have helped him through the collection of samples for his own research. Mutual benefits, which we are presumably both happy about. I thank him for his offer of assistance on this occasion, but we have a perfectly competent team on the case, and when our samples have been accurately described and written up in the peer-reviewed literature, he will have a chance to comment, just like everybody else.
    [ Reply to This ]
      Re: Mumbles Erratic by MyrisoffAlexandria on Saturday, 05 February 2022
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      Do you have any samples of the Limeslade erratic (your photo was most helpful in giving away the location of the boulder the headland in the background being distinctive).

      A visit by a 'competent Welsh glaciologist' post your visit could find no evidence of any sample being taken and stated that without drilling/coring it would be extremely difficult to sample.

      Do you have a hand specimen? The hand specimens of random Welsh basic rocks that you show alongside the erratic can only confuse the people you are trying to 'help'. Not at all useful.

      After 30 years of looking at Preseli dolerites and describing over 7000 pieces of Stonehenge bluestones my opinion might be considered to be one of worth, my take on the data is a different matter, but it is Trumpian to dismiss the offer. But if there is no sample it is a moot point.

      Can you confirm the weight that you suggest. The new pictures of the erratic come with dimensions (yours did not mmm) and so anyone now can calculate the correct weight.

      MPP and his team and all other archaeologists are aware of the glacial impact by Welsh and Irish Sea glacier on the making of Stonehenge. That impact is zero and you are a lone, albeit too strident, source, in thinking it significant.


      [ Reply to This ]

Re: Mumbles Erratic by MyrisoffAlexandria on Friday, 04 February 2022
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It is good to see the more measured account here rather than the inflated orginal press release. THat shall be commented on in another post. It is nice addition to the very few (but welcome) large igneous erratics known from South Wales (I think the fourth to be recognised since 1900). Far far too early to speculate on its origins but why stick to Pembrokeshire.
All this talk of erratics, sea journeys and stonehenge bluestones had me reminiscing. Pass the Madeline biscuits.

The offer of a detailed petrographical report remains open.
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by DavidHoyle on Thursday, 03 February 2022
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Superb fun. It does however rather rule out the inland route where they would have gone along the A465 although if I was them I'd have used the M4 and the bridge.
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    Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Thursday, 03 February 2022
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    Apparently the A40 was the preferred route in those days. There was a nice little cafe in Sennybridge where they used to stop for a cuppa...
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      Re: Mumbles Erratic by cerrig on Friday, 04 February 2022
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      I know it well ( going there today), and I can confirm that most of the bikers that call in there really are prehistoric.
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Thursday, 03 February 2022
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At least we didn't get a rolling stone in a china shop, or a pink herring in a melting pot.......
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Re: Mumbles Erratic by mountainman on Thursday, 03 February 2022
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Thanks for posting this, Andy. Since it is in the "Express" already, it can be deemed to be in the public domain!! Please forgive us for not yet revealing the precise grid reference -- the boulder is in a very dangerous position around mid-tide mark, and GREAT care is needed especially when the rocks are wet and slippery. We are taking advice on this.....
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