Thorgrim
(2005-03-08) | This is almost certainly a modern cairn erected by walkers as a windbreak shelter. It should not be confused with the cairn barrow at Yar Tor sometines described as a stone circle. See main site entry. What a confusing place! |
AngieLake
(2005-03-08) | Why then does Butler mention it in his Dartmoor Atlas of Antiquities, and the Dartmoor Nat Parks person agree it is Bronze Age? |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-08) | I dunno - Can anyone help us out on the various cairns, rows and stuff on Yar Tor? MagicMap only lists the stone row, adjacent barrow (Money Pit?) and an undefined settlement/field system, TMA has no photos and doesn't list this summit cairn, I can get nothing by searching for Yar Tor on Pastscape - anyone got any suggestions? Captain? Bec-zog? |
bec-zog
(2005-03-09) | This site @ 678741, as Thorgrim has mentioned above, is a more "modern" construction. There are several sites on Yar Tor & Corndon Down possibly dating from Iron Age to Romano period. Many hill tops were used for hut locations. This site is one of many Cairns. It has also been used as a source of building material.
The bronze age Yar Tor Burial Cairn and stone rows are located some way down the hillside nearer the road, ( to the left of AngieLake's viewpoint) @ 682738 not at the summit of the Tor. The rows are aligned on springs at Rogues Roost & Babeny. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-09) | Thanks bec-zog. So it might be medieval, Roman or Iron Age. Perhaps the best thing will be to accept Angie's photos and attach them to the Yar Tor Cairn site as here, but not create a new site for the summit. There is nothing shown on Magicmap for the summit and as that is the official record of ancient monuments we should be guided by it. MagicMap is compiled in partnershp with:
Defra (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)
Countryside Agency
English Heritage
Think this has to be our ultimate reference. |
AngieLake
(2005-03-09) | This site is at SX:678739 as I had entered both times on the twice-deleted site information postings, and as recorded in Butler's book. |
AngieLake
(2005-03-09) | I also called it Yar Tor SUMMIT Cairn so as not to confuse it with Money Pit Cairn. Someone else entered the photos under Yar Tor Cairn. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-09) | Angie - I think we are saying that nothing on the summit is LISTED as being an ancient monument. The photographs can stay and show us how such cairns can be difficult to identify. (see notes on site validation). |
enkidu41
(2005-03-09) | For the record, Jeremy Butler mentions 6 cairns on Yar Tor, all identified by Leslie Grinsell and two (Money Pit and Yar Tor Summit Cairn) being the subject of a report by the Barrow Committee of the Devonshire Association.
For the record the 8-figure grid references given by Butler for all these cairns are:
Yar Tor Summit: SX 6785 7393
Money Pit: SX 6817 7385
Yar Tor S: SX 6795 7358
Yar Tor NE: SX 6800 7416
Yar Tor E.1: SX 6815 7384
Yar Tor E.2: SX 6815 7383
If these are truly prehistoric cairns then Bec-Zog's grid reference may well refer to a new construction. Equally it could refer to either of the Yar Tor E cairns. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-09) | When was the Jeremy Butler book published? Anyway - I'll leave it to wiser heads than mine to resolve. Bec-zog is the Portal's guide for Devon so I'm happy to leave him with the last word and accept his advice. Over to you Enkidu if you want to add Yar Tor Summit Cairn as a legitimate site - I pass. |
enkidu41
(2005-03-09) | The 5 volumes of the book were published over a 6 year period between 1992 and 1997. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-09) | Butler would appear to be a recent detailed survey then and may have more information than has been recognised by official records. What does he actually say that the summit cairn is? |
enkidu41
(2005-03-09) | There is minimal information in Butler. He writes "To the south [of the prehistoric settlement] a cairn (c.18m) has been built over the highest rocks, its stones as usual rearranged to form an elaborate shelter". I assume considerably more extensive information may be had from Grinsell's listings or from the publication by the Barrow Committe of the Devonshire Association, Report Nos. 56, 62. Not sure how or where to access either of these! |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-09) | Well - that still says to me that it is a modern cairn shelter "To the south (of the prehistoric settlement) a cairn has been built..." Even Butler doesn't say it's prehistoric does he? You can see windbreak shelters on many British hills. Did ancient people build huts or whatever on the top of "the highest rocks"? As I say - up to you good people - I am unconvinced and will do a Pontius Pilate on Yar Tor's unconvincng Summit Cairn. I'm often wrong and will be delighted to be proved wrong on this one too.
BTW - there are even bigger ones on the summits of Snowdon, Ben Nevis,and Ingleborough - Victorians started them and we add a stone whenever we reach the top. Cheers. |
AngieLake
(2005-03-09) | Those words in brackets weren't in the book I photocopied at the library. I really DIDN'T want to add any more to this, but I emailed Thorgrim exactly what was in the Butler book before he asked me to re-submit my site info. (After which it was deleted for the second time). So, you knew what Butler said Peter! Butler wrote (quote exactly from photocopy): "An unusual little enclosure (8) has been constructed by connecting two of the rock masses on the summit of Yar Tor, reinforcing the natural boundary where necessary. The foundations of a hut (c.6.5m) can be detected against the base of the north rocks. TO THE SOUTH A CAIRN (c.18m) HAS BEEN BUILT OVER THE HIGHEST ROCKS, ITS STONES AS USUAL REARRANGED TO FORM AN ELABORATE SHELTER. THIS ROCK IS THE FOCUS OF A REAVE APPROACHING UPHILL FROM THE SOUTH-WEST AND CONTINUING ON THE OTHER SIDE TOWARDS SHERWELL IN THE VALLEY BELOW. It takes a flexible course.." etc. (The relevant words about Yar Tor Summit Cairn - which is marked on an accompanying map in his book - are in block capitals.)
The cairn is also listed in the back of the book. The title of the section where the text came from refers to the map: "Map 14 Yar Tor" "1-10 Yar Tor prehistoric settlements." (He had referred to no.8 just before his mention of the summit cairn. Looking at the map, no.8 covers the summit as a whole, and no.7 and no.9 are some distance away on lower slopes and any comments about them wouldn't be relative to this spot.
By the way, Yar Tor is easily accessible from a nearby road, so I don't see why anyone would want to carry a stone up there to place on a cairn anyway, but I have very little knowledge of mountain climbing.
I certainly didn't think my innocent idea of sharing my love of this place would escalate into the sort of discussion/arguement we've had on this page. I am sad that it has caused all this fuss. |
TheCaptain
(2005-03-10) | my word, we do seem to get into some daft arguments these days. After all thats been said above, I'll not get too involved here except to say that this site is clearly referred to in Butler (the standard Dartmoor reference these days), and I in fact added a comment from here to Angies original comment on the 22nd February - as a comment on the original (money pit cairn) site page. |
enkidu41
(2005-03-10) | Not sure that it's daft but it's certainly protracted!
When he refers to a 'modern' site, Butler usually points it out - and he doesn't do so for this cairn. As the thecaptain says, the books have become the standard work on Dartmoor and in the absence of evidence to the contrary I feel we should regard the Summit cairn as Bronze Age and that it should have a dedicated site page. There, that's nailed my colours to the mast! |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-10) | Ok - I have already said that I pass on this one - we have many more unconvincing sites on the Portal so another one won't do any harm. The whole point of causing a "fuss" or a "daft argument" is that we TRY TO GET IT RIGHT - we won't always agree and we have limited experience and knowledge. We are all amateurs and volunteers - we do our best. When the day dawns that we just accept everything without question so as not to upset anyone - that will be the day I quit. Challenge, test and only then accept - that must be the right way.. |
enkidu41
(2005-03-10) | Well said Thorgrim. |
templar
(2005-03-10) | Is it worth putting a list of "disputed/uncertain" sites together. Or flagging in the description that there is uncertainty? This way there will at least be an effort to show visitors that uncertainty exists. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-10) | Yes Templar. A list of disputed/uncertain sites will probably be messy. Flagging a caution in the individual site descriptions is probably the best thing to do for uncertainties. That way we are telling enquirers that there is some doubt and it leaves the door open for confirmation or deletion. I go one step further and believe that EVERY site should quote it validation source eg CARN, Pastscape etc. It will be a massive job to go through all of the sites on the Portal, but we welcome everyone to do what LivingRocks hasjust done with the Counting Stone Row - and that is to say "Hey - this is a wrong 'un!" Once notified, we can investigate and make any changes. The last thing we want is a mish-mash of doubtful "might be's" mixed up with the real things and nobody any the wiser as to which is which. |
enkidu41
(2005-03-10) | I agree that every site should quote a validation source - but how does one investigate those that do not appear in the 'official' sources? Almost by definition such sites would not be the obvious ones and so would unlikely to have been excavated. Surely nobody would suggest that the 'official' sources are 100% complete. |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-10) | This is the 23rd comment to this photo - must be a record!! Re validation sources - if we quote the official listing when it exists then that removes any doubt. In other cases we can quote whatever source is given to substantiate a site. In the Yar Tor case - the Butler survey would seem to be a reliable source but I would prefer to see the Barrow Committee findings at some point. We can then indicate certainties and various degrees of probability. Knowledge will always evolve. |
enkidu41
(2005-03-11) | Of course, we haven't considered the possibility that this is not Butlers' Yar Tor Summit Cairn at all. Can anyone verify this? |
Thorgrim
(2005-03-11) | Only Angie will know if she was on the summit or not. If it is a prehistoric cairn, are we saying that it's a burial cairn or a house or what? Is there any indication of a burial cist or anything at all? Only a barrow would be built on an exposed hilltop surely so that must rule out a settlement structure. This quote from Angie says something significant TO THE SOUTH A CAIRN (c.18m) HAS BEEN BUILT OVER THE HIGHEST ROCKS, ITS STONES AS USUAL REARRANGED TO FORM AN ELABORATE SHELTER. Perhaps non-climbing people will be unaware that elaborate windshelters have been constructed stone by stone over many decades on mountain tops by hikers - some have wind baffles at all angles and the suggestion of rooms even. This might suggest that stones from an earlier cairn have been REARRANGED by hikers. As LR says elsewhere - no evidence of plant growth, windblown soil or peat which you would expect to see if the stones had been in place for 2000 years or so. Add it as asite, but mark it as unproven. If you are going to say that it is Bronze Age (see earlier comment from Enkidu) that is pure guess work. Is that good enough? |
(2005-03-13) | I found an old report about Yar Tor summit made by the local dowsing group after their visit in Sept 2000, which readers may find interesting. (I was at work that day). The leader wrote: "The most interesting area for our purposes was however, the higher and much older Cairn that is located right at the summit of the Hilltop.... Time dowsing gave us a date for its construction of BC1893.... The burial site was placed to the side of the central point of the heap, with 2 other burials located in places again, other than in the centre area. Probably these were introduced into the rock pile at a later date.... Some person/persons have altered the centre of the Cairn and have created a passageway, in the form of a Clockwise Swirl, leading to the centre of the Cairn." The author compared the construction of this cairn with Ripon and Watern Tors. (Incidentally, this man spent 20 years in a job that required him to drive daily across Dartmoor.) I have never dowsed here, and I don't 'time dowse'. |
(2005-03-13) | Last message from Angie - sorry, not logged on. |
Perplexed
(2005-03-19) | Time Dowsing ! WOW |
AngieLake
(2005-03-27) | On Saturday, 26th March 2005, I checked the only records of the Devonshire Association Barrow Committee Reports at Devon Local Studies Library in Exeter that are listed as mentioning this cairn. The 56th Report (1937) verified the antiquity of this cairn, and the 62nd Report commented on damage to cairns and kistvaens (Money Pit) in the area. If you want to read more, click on 'Yar Tor Summit', underlined in blue at top left of this page, for a shortened version of the findings. Will try to photograph Corndon Tor's cairns soon! |
bec-zog
(2005-03-28) | For more data contact
Devon Archaeological Society, c/o Royal Albert Memorial Museum,
Queen Street, Exeter EX4 3RX, Devon
E-mail:dasmail@dasonline.wanadoo.co.uk
e.g.
Proceedings 36: 1978
Grinsell, L. Dartmoor Barrows
Reprints from Proceedings of the Devon Archaeological Society
1935 to 1950 £1.00
1951 to 1989 £1.50
1990 to current £2.50
Post and packing will be charged in addition to the cost of the item.
Cheques should be made payable to ‘Devon Archaeological Society’
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