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Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> cup marks or not?
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cup marks or not? |
nosocks
Joined:
01-04-2005
Messages: 1
from dundee
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|  Posted 17-04-2005 at 20:51
Hi all
Quick question : How do you know when markings on stones are genuine ancient cup marks and when they are natural weathering? I found these boulders recently in Glen Doll in Angus and wondered about the "cup" marks on them. They don't appear on any maps or lists of ancient sites that I know of so I suspect they are not the real thing.
http://www.fun.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/stones/kilbo.jpg
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nicoladidsbury
Joined:
17-03-2004
Messages: 108
from A Cumbrian Lass
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| Posted 17-04-2005 at 22:56
Quote:
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On 2005-04-17 20:51, nosocks wrote:
Quick question : How do you know when markings on stones are genuine ancient cup marks and when they are natural weathering? |
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Good question, some rocks that have been identified as having "cup" marks, just look weathered to me.
Question: If you find a rock that looks like it has cup marks, how would you get it verified?
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megawoogi
Joined:
18-01-2005
Messages: 8
from Inverness
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| Posted 20-04-2005 at 13:21
The best way to tell if a cupmark is likely to be real is to weigh up the evidence...
Is the cupmark regular - does it have a round edge and a regular, pecked base? Does it look like it has been made by the hand of man?
If the cupmark has brethren, do they also look regular, or like weathered, natural features? If the former - splendid! If the latter - perhaps natural.
Is the rock of a type likely to contain natural hollows - and is it in an area known for cupmarks?
The RCAHMS survey of Ben Lawers, Loch Tay recorded many new examples - some quite spectacular - during an intensive archaeological survey (see the excellent paper by Alex Hale: ‘Prehistoric rock carvings in Strath Tay’, published in the Tayside and Fife Archaeological Journal Volume IX (2003)). There are many out there yet to be discovered - and, once you start looking, it can become addictive!
As to having them verified, organisations such as the national heritage agencies / departments, Archaeological Trusts, Royal Commissions often lack the resources to come out and visit all but the best examples / most threatened archaeological sites. The best thing to do - with all sites of which you are sure - is submit the data (photo, grid ref, description) to your local National Monuments Record or SMR / HER.
As to the photos posted by naesocks - the rock certainly looks hard enough, but the 'cups' look pretty deep. Some stones in improved agricultural land (which may since have been abandoned or aforested) bear deep bore holes / aborted bore holes which were to be used to dynamite them into more readily cleared rocks.
[ This message was edited by: megawoogi on 2005-04-20 13:50 ]
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sem
Joined:
12-11-2003
Messages: 1709
from Bridgend,S.Wales
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| Posted 26-04-2005 at 21:06
As an aside to this, were our ancestors copying natural acidic erosion when they made cup marks? Limestone and Red Sandtone give good examples of this.
Maybe they were just appreciating and copying nature in an artistic way.
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MickM
Joined:
02-01-2005
Messages: 192
from London
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| Posted 26-04-2005 at 23:58
Quite possibly & to confuse the issue (apologies) there is evidence that naturally weathered cup marked stones have been incorporated into some sites such as chambered cairns. During recent excavations at Cairnderry & Bargrennan (Dumfries & Galloway) natural cup marks were noted on many of the cairn stones. Then there are the rings around some cupmarks & spirals, could these be mimicking other natural features? There was after all an ammonite incorporated into one of the portal stones at the Stoney Littleton chambered tomb in the Cotswolds.
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templar
Joined:
20-07-2004
Messages: 31
from Cardiff
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| Posted 27-04-2005 at 09:23
Has anyone tried making their own cup marks to see how difficult it is, perhaps one of our budding sculptors out there? I assume that you'd be best off with some kind of bow and drill affair. This would allow you to get a regular cup. Or would you simply hit it with a pointed stone?
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Thorgrim
Joined:
25-06-2003
Messages: 794
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| Posted 27-04-2005 at 09:31
Depends on the type of stone. Granite has to be pounded with another piecs of granite - then it beginsto crumble and a hollow can be formed. Limestone etc will be much easier and flint or bronze will cut it easily. Time is what is required and some modern experimenters have been impatient and their efforts are feeble.
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sem
Joined:
12-11-2003
Messages: 1709
from Bridgend,S.Wales
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| Posted 27-04-2005 at 22:12
To confuse the issue even further MickM, I had the idea a few years ago that stones with cup marks (natural) might have been chosen for their resemblence to astronomical alignments. Unfortunately, with my complete lack of knowledge about things celestial, I soon realised that I was never going to get anywhere with this idea.
Is anyone out there willing to take it up ?
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andy_h
Joined:
04-02-2003
Messages: 28
from Barnsley UK
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| Posted 01-05-2005 at 10:41
It is very difficult to sometimes tell natural and designed cup marks apart. Things to look for are their position in the landscape and the proximity of other rock art in the area. Some areas have a recognisable 'style'.
Designed cup marks tend to be quite shallow and rounded in appearance and often look to be weathering-out of the rock. Many natural cups appear to have quite steep edges, flat bottoms and look to be weathering-in... although, of course this isn't always the case. Also look for other design elements like grooves.
Outdoor rock art (as opposed to that used in tombs) is most often found on the flat upper surface of outcrops (usually complex designs), or on boulders (usually simpler designs)... although again, there are exceptions.
Rock art is rarely found at the very tops of hills, usually falling into a 'band' between a lower and upper height.... except where it has been removed from its original location for re-use. It's positioning in the landscape can often offer clues.
Most of the time, you have to go with intuition... sometimes you get it wrong but speculating and discovering is all part of the fun!
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