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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
General Forum >> River name?
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River name? |
Rev
Joined:
13-05-2004
Messages: 19
from Manchester
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|  Posted 10-01-2005 at 23:53
Hi,
close to where I live is the River Bollin. I am wondering if any one knows the origin of the name. The 'Lin' seems to derive from Celtic for water, as in Dublin, Rosslyn etc. Do any learned folk know of a suggestion for the 'Bo' or 'Bol'? If not, are there any bodies of water/rivers that you know of which have a 'Bol' type connection??
Cheers
Rev. 
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howar
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20-08-2008
Messages: 80
from Orkney
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|  Posted 11-01-2005 at 00:13
My first thought was Bolinbroke (ducks head). But nearest I can come is i) early British both-bhrac becoming Bolfracks near Aberfeldy and ii) bothry in Aberbothrie in Perthshire is from "boidhre, meaning in common speech 'deafness,' but in this case, as a stream name, 'the deaf one', i.e. 'the noiseless one' ". Now if only I knew Celtic .....
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Thorgrim
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| Posted 11-01-2005 at 09:16
Possibly you are correct about the "lin" element and many rivers do have pre-Roman names. However, "lin" usually means lake rather than river, as in Welsh Llin and of course Dublin means the Black Lake or even Blackpool! Your local volume of the English Placename Society's massive work should be availabe in your nearest large public library. The "Boll" element could be as simple as meaning "a bull" or be an Anglo-Saxon personal name - Bulla or Bola as in Bollington = Bola's tun. In Lincolnshire there is a "Bolinbroke" derived from the brook of Bulla's people. Bolin could be connected to the Boleyn surname - any local connection with that family in your area?
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Rev
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from Manchester
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| Posted 11-01-2005 at 19:32
Thanks for your replies!
With regards to surnames, Bollington and it's derivatives, appears in other parts of England but all seem to stem from migration of peoples from Cheshire. The Boleyn family were from Kent I think (don't quote me on that as I am trawling my mind back to 3rd year history!), so if there is a connection, it would appear that it is a corruption of a name which moved South a few hundred years previous.
I have tried tracking down the river name using various sources and always arrive at the same answer; there is no known explanation for the name 'Bollin'. Bollington, of which there are two in the vicinity of the river, seems to mean nothing more than 'Town by the Bollin'. I guess I will never know, thanks to those pesky Mediterranean’s!!
The river itself passes quite close to Lindow Moss ('Lin' again!) where the famous bog body 'Pete Marsh' was found, and it is also not so far from Alderley Edge, so there are lots of pre-Roman connections close to the river. There were also reports of a Mesolithic 'camp' being found in the Bollins banks, when the airport extended it's runway a few years ago.
One source I found did venture this explanation. The name could be a corruption of 'Bolus' which was the Roman word for fishing net, added to the existing Celtic 'Lin' element. I am not happy with this explanation for two reasons i) it seems to suggest that the stout hearted Cornovii were collaborators with our Roman overlords ii) I used to go swimming in the Bollin as a child and can tell you the only thing I ever caught were leeches on my legs, and a clip round the ear from my mum for playing in water!!
If anyone reading this does come across any pre-Roman 'Bo'/'Bol' references then I would be grateful if you could e-mail myself.
As a further thought, did the Romans leave the names of rivers intact in other regions they conquered or this unique to 'Albion'?
Thanks once again
Rev
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Thorgrim
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| Posted 11-01-2005 at 20:24
Place names are a minefield. You have to start with the earliest recorded version which generally means Anglo-Saxon. The most authoritative account will be in the volume of the English Placenames Society as advised. It will give earliest versions plus informed interpretations. Romans often Latinised earlier British names (I don't use the word Celtic for the inhabitants of Britain and Ireland). Saxons frequently gave their personal names to settlements thus eradicating earlier names, but often left British river names intact. Danes overlaid with their personal names and so a veritable tangle has to be unravelled.
The English Place-Name Society is a good source of information, and will answer specific place name queries by email.
[ This message was edited by: Thorgrim on 2005-01-11 20:35 ]
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Anonymous
User not Registered | Posted 12-01-2005 at 11:10
Bollin -> Bo Lin -> Black Bull
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sem
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from Bridgend,S.Wales
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| Posted 15-01-2005 at 20:21
Rev
For what it's worth,my Welsh dictionary gives BOL as BELLY.Most Welsh place names are descriptions of a place,so it COULD mean "belly of the lake."
Hope this is useful.
Sem
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Rev
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from Manchester
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| Posted 16-01-2005 at 14:22
I find the last response most interesting and something I have considered before. Lindow is a Celtic remnant. The surviving Brythonic (or P-Celtic) language of the Welsh is regarded as the second oldest Indo-European language still in common use today, and derives from the ‘Proto-Celtic’ language in use during the 'Iron Age'. If Lindow were Welsh, it would probaly be called Llyndu. Llyn-lake or pool and Du-black. Lindow=Blackpool
The Black Lake at Lindow is still there, in reduced form as seasonal patch of dark water, and in the silted up peat bog from which Lindow Man was extracted.
Then we have the Bollin, whose name could be ‘The Belly of the Lake’. Lindow itself may have been subjected to flooding from the Bollin, which may have been interpreted as the ‘Birthing’ of this sacred lake. In 1884 an antiquarian, Norbury, describes the timber causeway and the body of a boar, an animal with 'Celtic Cult' connotations, discovered at Lindow Moss. Norbury also makes reference to the people who lived on and around the Moss. He claims that they displayed physical and cultural traits most unlike those of other peoples in the locality. We have now an ancient and sacred lake, a river with a name lost to history but which suggests a connection with the sacred lake, and a distinct people living around the sacred lake within a cock stride of the nameless river.
Place names are a minefield (can we use quagmire to maintain the ‘moist’ nature of the discussion!), and after trying ‘various sources’, I accepted long ago that it is unlikely that anybody will ever be able to provide a definitive answer. This is true of most of the topics which ‘Megalithic Portal’ is concerned with, but it is to the, generally, open-minded and knowledgeable community who frequent this website, that I turn to seek further discussion on this topic. ‘Sod off’ and ask EPNS gets my goat a little, when I turn to other 'Portalers' to enhance my own personal interpretation of the past.
Radio Carbon dating tends to suggest that Lindow Man died in or around the first century AD. At around this time the Romans invaded our beautiful territory. By 60AD the Roman northern frontier extended from the Mersey Estuary eastwards. To the north of the Mersey, the Brigantes squabbled among themselves and bartered with Rome for their own security, until they too yielded to conquest in around 79AD. To the south, the jackboot (or hob-nailed sandal!) of the Romans was stomping around in the homeland of the Cornovii. Lindow sits uncomfortably between this hammer and anvil. It is speculated that Lindow Man was a ‘Triple-Death Sacrifice’ a plea for assistance from the gods in this most troubled of times. That the lost name of the river in closest proximity to the sacred ‘Blackpool’ could have link’s to this body of water, and it’s sacrifice, intrigues me no end. At the very least, my posting makes a change from Russian whores and Christmas shoppers who have been frequenting this site recently! So have a look around your own neck of the woods. Is there a river/body of water/place near you with a name/folklore/ancient reputation/whatever ,that might open up new possibilities in this archeao-etymology of a locality which is close to myself, in every sense of the word? (thanks to those who have taken this posting in the spirit intended!!)
Note:The Greeks and Romans knew of a large tribe as the ‘Keltoi’. The other peoples of this time, who displayed the same cultural and physical traits, were then described as ‘Keltoi’. This shows that stereotyping and bigotry were alive and well then too! (Does anybody know the Latin/Ancient Greek for ‘ They all look alike to me!’). As our modern academia developed, it promoted the Greek/Roman ‘civilisations’ as learned and other cultures as barbaric. The Iron Age ‘Barbarians’ have for years been referred to as ‘Kelts/Celts’ because of this. The languages they used and which have remained with us, are referred to as the ‘Celtic Languages’. I at no time suggest that the peoples of the British Isles of this period should be referred to as ‘Celts’ but cannot help, due to circumstances outside of my control, that this is the popular label used to describe their language/customs etc. As an example, I live in England and adhere to English customs. The language I speak and write most frequently is English. Does this make me an Englishman? A Elfred mec heht Gewrycan? Not I, y'Saxon interloper!!
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Thorgrim
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| Posted 17-01-2005 at 08:45
You can often get place names to mean what you want them to mean, but can only be reasonably certain by going back to the roots - the earliest known form of the name. Yes - Bollin could mean Belly Pool or even Pregnant Pool from the British "lin" which even survives as far east as in Lincoln and King's Lynn. As for Lindow - well "Lind" usually means lime trees from their old name of "Linden" Have you checked the English Placename Society's book yet or perhaps Ekwall's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names?
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Jimit
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from winchester
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|  Posted 17-01-2005 at 10:57
Here where I live in Winchester the local river is the Itchen. Any enquiries I've made obout its derivation just come up with "Unknown..prob pre-Celtic"
A couple of obscure ideas.....from the Greek for fish or the Sanskrit for to sprinkle or wet!
Any ideas?
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Thorgrim
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| Posted 17-01-2005 at 16:47
River names are certainly among the oldest in Britain. A British (Celtic) origin has been suggested for many rivers including the rivers Itchen of Hampshire and Warwickshire. However, so little is known about the early language of the Britons that it is not always possible to suggest a meaning. Itchen is certainly pre-English and probably pre-Celtic. Consult the Hampshire volume of English Place-name Society at your nearest large library. Good luck!
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Zenmonk
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from Pontypridd
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| Posted 30-01-2005 at 11:21
This isn't going to help you OP, I'm sure. But In France/Brittany there is a castle called Rosanbo (which is really nice and cheap to have a tour of too) It means the Rose on the Bo, Ros or Rose is maybe the family name I cant remember, but Bo was the old name of the river.
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AngieLake
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from Newton Abbot, Devon
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|  Posted 30-01-2005 at 22:17
Hi Rev
In reply to your original question about the River Bollin, and what 'Bo' might mean:
I remembered I had a couple of old (1960s) guide books to Cornish names, and looked up 'Bo'. I found (in the 1st book):
'bos' - which meant 'dwelling'; 'bogh' - a 'billy goat, or buck'; 'bora' - 'dawn'; 'bownd' - 'tin bounds'; 'bownder' - 'lane'; and 'bowjy' - cowshed.
These were all the words beginning with 'bo'.
'Lyn' on the other hand, meant 'stitch of land'; 'lynn' meant 'anchorage'.
In the second book:
'Bod' meant 'a dwelling' (Variants: 'Bot', 'bos', 'bo').
Therefore, Boscawenoon =
'Bo' = 'house'/'home' ; '-scawen' = 'at the elder tree'; 'scawenoon': '('house') 'at elder tree', 'on the' (n, an). 'down' ('oon', 'goon').
Boscawen Un (the circle in Cornwall) is pronounced 'Boscanoon' by the locals. Then there's 'Goonhilly', where the huge communications telescopes/space scanners are situated on the Lizard Peninsula downs. (I digress!)
From this we would get 'Bo-llin' translating as:
'Home/s by the anchorage' perhaps? or 'House Anchorage', or 'House at stitch of land'?
(Hope this helps just a little.)
Angie
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enkidu41
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from London
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| Posted 30-01-2005 at 23:49
Ekwall has Itchen connected with the tribal name Iceni but this is thought groundless by Room who suggests it may represent the name of a Celtic river God.
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enkidu41
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from London
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| Posted 30-01-2005 at 23:58
And for good measure, Field throws in the suggestion that Itchen may perhaps(!) mean 'mighty' or 'powerful'.
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enkidu41
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from London
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| Posted 31-01-2005 at 00:10
Interesting input from Angie re. Bollin. Just a small correction to her pronunciation of Boscawen-Un.
Phonetically, the 'o' disappears so the pronunciation becomes b'scaun-OON with the 'au' sound being somewhere between an 'aw' and an 'ah', and with the stress on the final syllable, 'oon'.
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AngieLake
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from Newton Abbot, Devon
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| Posted 31-01-2005 at 13:10
Hi Enkidu
I met the local man whose pronunciation I copied at Higher Drift Stones. We chatted for a while about that site, as he was curious about my dowsing, and he pointed out the tall standing stone that I hadn't noticed (to the SE?), and told me that he worked all his life on the farm land around us.
When he said his own word for Boscawen Un, I heard it as 'Boscanoon', but you may well be correct that he dropped his 'o'. Also, I have had a hearing problem most of my life, for which I use a small hearing aid, but am usually fine in a situation like that, where it is quiet, and I am concentrating on someone speaking. Don't you think that whatever the word is - it gradually gets condensed over the years by lazy efforts to say it properly? That's how we arrive at most of our place names today. So - I would still call it 'Boscanoon' I'm afraid!
Now:
For Rev's sake, I've found another list of Cornish words this morning (something I printed off a website some time last year), and in it:
'House' is 'Chy'
Now, why I didn't think of that, I really don't know, as, when I was married (my ex was in the Police) we were posted to Newquay for 4 years, and lived in 'Chynance Drive' - 'The house in the valley' (nance = valley)!
On this list, 'Bos' = 'Dwelling' (pronunciaton = Bose).
There was no Breton equivalent (the site gave several similar Breton words and their pronunciation).
'Lyn', meanwhile, meant 'Lake' (so my name would be 'Angela Lyn' in Cornish!) Pronounced 'Linn', and the Breton equivalent was 'Loc'h, pronounced 'LoRR'. (There must be a reason for those two capital 'R's, but I hadn't printed it out.)
As Cilla would say, 'I wish you a Lorra, lorra luck with your research on your river name!' Corny, huh?
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Thorgrim
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| Posted 31-01-2005 at 13:20
Don't know much about Cornish language and how it is spoken, but I always take with a large pinch of salt the academic attempt to put sounds into phonetic descriptions. Maybe the Cornish speaker hadn't read up on how he should have sounded!
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enkidu41
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from London
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| Posted 31-01-2005 at 19:26
I'm not an academic either in this or any other matter. I lived in west Penwith for many years and count many of the local people as friends. I offer no opinions on things I know nothing about.
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