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Analysis of 63 ancient human remains rewrites the story of Stonehenge |
davidmorgan
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|  Posted 09-03-2013 at 11:46
Documentary on Channel 4 tomorrow...
http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/analysis-of-63-ancient-human-remains-rewrites-the-story-of-stonehenge
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/secrets-of-the-stonehenge-skeletons
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AngieLake
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|  Posted 09-03-2013 at 12:35
Am looking forward to this programme.
On Daily Mail website there's a link with lots of pics and graphics. I do wonder if some pics have appeared on Meg P?!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290601/Was-Stonehenge-ancient-burial-ground-Scientists-discover-bone-fragments-63-bodies-historic-monument.html
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Feanor
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| Posted 09-03-2013 at 15:31
Great Stuff - looking forward to it.
Hopefully there'll be a webcast.
Following these things as closely as we do here on the Portal, and after a review of the above links, it seems that the big news would be the late Beaker Influence and the swift building process.
It will be fun to see the recent information finally strung together, but some of it is old news.
Neil
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Andy B
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| Posted 09-03-2013 at 19:46
Thanks - I had a reminder message from Mike PP so have put it on the front page.
Also this week:
Heritage! The Battle for Britain's Past
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p014fxzv
English Heritage are going on about this as a reminder that it is 100 years since the 1913 Ancient Monuments Act which gave protection to a select range of “unoccupied” buildings of national importance – not just ruins, pre-historic sites and monuments – and, for the first time, allowed public access to ancient monuments in public ownership, such as Stonehenge.
Later this month, at the futuristic Grade I Lloyds Building in the City of London, English Heritage will announce plans to commemorate the Act’s centenary with an exhibition telling the story of the heritage protection movement. It is an apt venue because, under chief executive Simon Thurley, English Heritage has looked forward to safeguard Britain’s unique history and architecture, rather than wallowing in nostalgia and conservation aspic.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenpolitics/planning/9812964/This-ancient-monument-is-under-siege.html
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2013-03-09 19:47 ]
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 21:01
Orkney? What, no mention of Newgrange? Surely the strontium levels of pigs/cattle in the north of Ireland must be the same as Scotland since the geology is similar?
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 21:10
Yes, a little strange that they would accept Bluestones being brought by water from Wales and people travelling from Orkney (in a month with animals!!!?)but not include members from the thriving community across the Irish sea whom had shared similar monument building practices in the years before Stonehenge.
I know they have to adapt these programmes to suit a certain demographic but the way in which they are edited does little to enhance the professionalism of MPP who doubtless along with his vast team deserve greater recognition for their diligence than these documentaries would make us believe.
On a slightly different note, I would hardly agree with the programme's description of the original circle as a vast cemetery.
63 cremations is not big by any standards and very small by comparison to the numbers we are led to believe were once interred in some of the long barrows and sites like Mine Howe etc.
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cropredy
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 21:14
Does anyone know if Mike PP has taken an overdose of presumption and assumption tablets??
Bones under the stones are not simply a place of burial, but can be central to the design requirement of the stones and their precise location, which is presumably off limits for this section of the forum????
The natural wearing by glacial melt waters may have been influenced directly by forces presumabely off limits for this section of the forum??
What the dickens would have happened at these solstice moments if lots of cloud was present???
What if it is not the visual that was been observed, but of course again such thoughts are off limits for this section of the forum.
The above thoughts were clearly off limits for the program, which talked of assumptions willy nilly.
The fine detail and archaeological finds should have been presented without the assumptions and stupid drawings of assumed living conditions and practises, that part was interesting, the rest left Me feeling like hitting the TV with a mace axe.
cropredy
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aknifethatfellfromthesky
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 21:44
assumptions and guess work. it seems like just another one of the many theories, all of which hold little water due to the amount of speculation involved. its good to speculate but it it all too soon becomes fact and dogma. Dx
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tiompan
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 23:09
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On 2013-03-10 21:01, davidmorgan wrote:
Orkney? What, no mention of Newgrange? Surely the strontium levels of pigs/cattle in the north of Ireland must be the same as Scotland since the geology is similar?
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It's worse than that , the colour code for Orkney in the anaysis chart was not that of the Dalradian , Moinian or Lewisian gneiss but no different from that of the English midlands . Maybe if he had been at Callanish it would have made more sense but certainly not Brodgar .
George
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aknifethatfellfromthesky
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 23:20
the geology of scotland is some of the most complex in the world. at brodgar i believe its devonian old red sandstone. Dx
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tiompan
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 23:35
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On 2013-03-10 23:20, aknifethatfellfromthesky wrote:
the geology of scotland is some of the most complex in the world. at brodgar i believe its devonian old red sandstone. Dx
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The Northern Isles and the ORS has totally different strontium isotopic signature from the that of the Dalradian ,Moinian and lewisian Gneiss of the Highlands and Western Isles . On the chart they showed up as reds whilst Orkney and other Northern Isles was Green , the same as is found in the Midlands of England .
George
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sem
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 23:37
Old Red Sandstone.
Good call Knifethatetc.
There's at least 20 different types of ORS in the Brecon Beacons Park and geologists are still trying to sort them out!
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tiompan
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 23:59
A simpler map from that used in the prog , note the similarities between Orkney and Middle England and contrast with Highland Scotland and Western isles . Jane Evans was the researcher in the prog too .
http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/wiltshire/boscombe/bowmen/strontium_isotope.html
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-03-11 00:00 ]
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 00:17
Where I live it is all Old Red Sandstone for about 15 miles in each direction but ironically most of it is green!
Geology is a very dodgy platform to extrapolate data from because there is enormous variation over very small areas.
I did not see however that evidence for the animals travelling from all over the British Isles is conclusive proof that the people eating them had also. Surely it could be interpreted as proof of trade in animals but how do we know that the people at the feasts were anything other than locals joined by a few drovers from up north?
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Elijah
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 09:01
With regard to the - "Analysis of 63 ancient human remains rewrites the story of Stonehenge"...
I refer you my article once again http://andrewgough.co.uk/secretorigins.html and the small section on Ritual Cremation...
Mike Pitts informs us in his book “Hengeworld” P121, of the re-evaluated archaeological evidence that now reveals some “sixty cremation burials” found within the excavated portions of Stonehenge. The forensic archaeologist Jackie Mckinley P120, stresses the degree of burning to these and other cremated burials; “these features, a high degree of cremation, and a lot of bone collected – are typical of burials found in the centre of round barrows”.
Once again archaeologists find "Evidence of Feasting", but never explain the unusually high number of victims.
John
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tiompan
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 09:09
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On 2013-03-11 09:01, Elijah wrote:
With regard to the - "Analysis of 63 ancient human remains rewrites the story of Stonehenge"...
I refer you my article once again http://andrewgough.co.uk/secretorigins.html and the small section on Ritual Cremation...
Mike Pitts informs us in his book “Hengeworld” P121, of the re-evaluated archaeological evidence that now reveals some “sixty cremation burials” found within the excavated portions of Stonehenge. The forensic archaeologist Jackie Mckinley P120, stresses the degree of burning to these and other cremated burials; “these features, a high degree of cremation, and a lot of bone collected – are typical of burials found in the centre of round barrows”.
Once again archaeologists find "Evidence of Feasting", but never explain the unusually high number of victims.
John
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John , where is the evidence for "victims " .
George
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 09:48
They must have chopped down a lot of trees before they realised that the glacial melt grooves were pointing in the direction of the midwinter sunset.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2013-03-11 10:23 ]
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Elijah
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 10:46
Hi George
You wrote... "John , where is the evidence for "victims " .
George"
You can turn that question around and ask where is the evidence of feasting. Feasting was invariably a by-product of the sacrificial act, so how do you distinguish the rationale behind their slaughter? The fact that such a huge number of animals were brought together at one of Britain's most sacred centers and slaughtered must surely suggest ritual activity. Is "gorging" by the participants a rationale explanation for the transportation and death of so many valuable animals?
I find it odd that anthropologists never discuss the primary objective of ancient blood sacrifice, which invariably involved the liberation and ritual use of the victims "spirit laden" blood? I believe that the victims flesh was simply a by-product of this process.
John
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Runemage
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 11:35
It was unfortunate indeed that the bones had been dug up in antiquity and mixed together and dumped in one pile under a plaque for MPP and his team to try and sort out. It's left to conjecture which bones were under which stone. I felt that the inference was that there was an entire individual cremated person in each hole then a bluestone was then erected over it like a grave marker.
If this is the case, it's a very different practise to say Newgrange where only a few cremated bones of each deceased person were taken into the mound.
Also every animal herder knows that if you take them on a long journey where they have to forage for decent food wherever they can, they are not prime eating material when they arrive at their destination. It's one thing herding cattle, the older breeds were very docile, but pigs?
Despite MPP standing almost next to it as he was in the Ring Of, there was not a peep about the Ness of Brodgar which as the Neolithic Centre of Britain predates SH by a good margin.
Maybe I'm being too picky, it was a prime time programme to explain a theory formulated from archaeological evidence about the beginnings of Stonehenge, broadcast to interest the general public. In that context I'd say it was successful.
Rune
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tiompan
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| Posted 11-03-2013 at 11:36
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On 2013-03-11 10:46, Elijah wrote:
Hi George
You wrote... "John , where is the evidence for "victims " .
George"
You can turn that question around and ask where is the evidence of feasting. Feasting was invariably a by-product of the sacrificial act, so how do you distinguish the rationale behind their slaughter? The fact that such a huge number of animals were brought together at one of Britain's most sacred centers and slaughtered must surely suggest ritual activity. Is "gorging" by the participants a rationale explanation for the transportation and death of so many valuable animals?
I find it odd that anthropologists never discuss the primary objective of ancient blood sacrifice, which invariably involved the liberation and ritual use of the victims "spirit laden" blood? I believe that the victims flesh was simply a by-product of this process.
John
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John .80,000 bones of domesticates (compared with three human bones ) with signs of scorching and some only half eaten found together and centred around buildings is the evidence for feasting .We can be sure that the there was mass slaughter and gluttony but not necessarily the ritual use of blood . The feast took place at Durrington not Stonehenge .
George
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