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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries >> Divining disputes ?
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Divining disputes ? |
vlad
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|  Posted 06-03-2013 at 19:21
I think it`s a mistake to imagine megalithic constructors running around with some dowsing tools to shout eventually - "Here; put that stone here into the ground!!" In this way we are missing completely the religious ideology, from which impulses to construct megaliths could have been drawn.
Anyway; there`s no much possibility to reconstruct that ideology as the access to it was probably gained in the course of stepwise initiations and some mystery rites. (C.f. Bakchoi in ancient Greece) Some hints could be found within materials gathered by ethnology. Studying "dowsing" - or rather geomancy, which has been executed since old times in India and China could also help.
Men those old secrets are not revealed straightaway to any wannabe-practitioners. Let`s look at the case of the "theoretical entrance" in feng-shui. After studying some examples I`ve found out that it`s a discreet way of discussing the location of energetical centre within living quarters, while not disclosing the topic to the outsiders.
I would rather not absolutize dowsing as a source of some revelations in the situation, when anyone is free to reform and interpret it at will. I guess a first impulse to develop the modern western dowsing could have come from some European mystery schools, e.g. the Rosicrucians. Afterwards, it began to grow spontaneously in all possible directions, loosing at the same time its "spiritual" roots.
But without such roots, modern dowsing has little to do with the world of ideas, wherein our megalithic forefathers probably used to find incentives to their construction activities. We can only guess that on the one hand geomancy was connected to the cult of a triple Mother Earth, her partners and/or clan ancestors, while on the other hand that of celestial bodies and spirits.
Hindu geomancy has "purusha" (one of its meanings is a "World Soul") as a model for home layouts and "aśwattha" as a leading guide to place such a home in space. Aśvattha is a World Tree with roots in Heaven. What we happen to run against in our dowsing practice are its branches on the surface of the Earth.
"Śvetaśvataraupanishad" has more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VET84iPVcuE
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-12 21:21 ]
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Runemage
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| Posted 08-03-2013 at 21:31
Hello Vlad, it's good to see you posting again 
I'm not very clued-up on Hindu geomancy, so once again I'll go and learn something I'd never have known about had you not mentioned it.
Re the link on the previous page to TLH article by Tom Graves "A great deal of care, and a real awareness of the subtle boundaries between art and magic, science and spirit, are extremely important - all of which demands a great deal of hard work, both within and without ourselves. "
He's comparatively recently (2008) expanded on this theory and has published a book the disciplines of dowsing in which he outlines which perspective dictates which outcome and how to recognise which perspective you're using and how to change that to achieve balance. http://tetradianbooks.com/ebook/disciplines-summary.pdf
Sig's response the the TLH article "There is too much either/or thinking going on, and not enough both/and." seems to have been addressed well by Tom's later 'Disciplines' theories outlined on the above link.
Rune
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vlad
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| Posted 09-03-2013 at 07:15
Thanks, Rune, I`ve ordered this new book of Tom Graves. It looks fit to our times. If I`ve gathered that right at first glance, Tom Graves issues a warning against excluding any of possible approaches to dowsing and/or trying to hype any of them at the cost of the other ones. Well; it may be a good starting platform for some new reflections.
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vlad
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| Posted 10-03-2013 at 21:41
In the meantime, I`m looking again through the "Needles of Stone revisited" by Tom Graves, Gothic Image 1986. There are many concepts inherited after earlier dowsers and some of them have been chosen by the author to transfer over to new generations. On page 178 ("Healing the Land") there`s such a sentence: - "Dowsers have been using stakes to neutralise "noxious earth radiations" from BLACK STREAMS for more than 50 years...their work can be seen as part of a more complex system of earth acupuncture that is now being developed as a means of healing the land."
OK. Say someone hasn`t read Plutarch`s "Moralia", where some dialogues are dealing with the Oracle of Delphi. If so, such a human being wouldn`t know that Pythia "used to drink from the stream of Styx", in acc. with the opinion of Plutarch`s brother. If we are looking for "black streams" in our oldest traditions, then the Styx-streams are the first choice, I suppose. Well; but these days we are not using any outlandish oracles to plan our activities so we can live without those black streams; can`t we?
But wait a minute; Hindu tradition says "Space is Water", i.e. a female element and Bhuvaneshvari is the patroness of the Space. What if the "lines" we discover with dowsing tools are only some meagre signals representing the male life-energy elements readable against the predominantly female Space? Should we leave the most of the Space not investigated?
When studying mythology of the female pantheon we can gather that there are three qualities of female energy, just as the triple goddesses of Celtic mythology point to. In Greek tradition there`s the virgin Hera - Hebe, next comes the main form of Hera the mother of all nature and of local heroes (in pre-panhellenic times) and then Sphinx which in the autumn tries to devour all what Hera have given birth to in the spring.
Sphinx seems to be a protector of seasonal black streams, while Styx-streams belong to the "constitutional" elements of the cosmic order, "comprising one tenth of the Underground Ocean waters". Now; if someone wanted to divert the seasonal black streams from an area in winter, maybe one would worsen its fertility in the spring? Why? - Well; because those three goddesses and life-energy streams they supervise are strictly united and are interchanging quality and individual "volume" according to seasons. Regarding the Styx, Greeks thought it better to maintain there`s only one of that kind (nearby Chelmos Mt. in Peloponnese) but constructed chthonian sanctuaries over the major Styx-streams elsewhere. The latter is the case with the Gaia precinct neighbouring Apollo`s temple at Delphi.
Well; it feels like dowsing is over-masculinized. To tell one kind of a black stream from another is rather a female task, calling for a special training; why not such as Thyiades of Delphi used to exert? Male dowsers are frequently blocking off signals coming from the black streams and besides, what`s the use of diverting them, if they were found at last? In this case you are pushing the problem away over another bloke`s field, instead of studying it.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-14 12:55 ]
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ledgehammer
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| Posted 12-03-2013 at 23:16
Vlad,
the way I see it
The use of rods today are a repercussion of mankind's evolution in as much as we are very reliant on the material world today, the rods merely enhance the senses that have always been there, the megalithic builders surely would benefited from an evolutionary trait of being able to sense where water was? As do many other animals and species on the earth.
We use the rods today as a physical expression of this sense which we rely on less, dowsing other things is an exploration of the process. Water and energy lines are all I can detect though, but this may be due to the way I understand dowsing, I suspect If you are able to convince yourself you can do other things they may well be possible.
Best
Tom
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tiompan
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| Posted 12-03-2013 at 23:40
Hello Tom , long time no hear from . would you mind answering a question please .
If I dowse in my garden concentrating on the thought of water and at certain points the rods close and when these points are plotted they prove to be in a roughly straight line should I believe that I have discovered anything ? is it likely to be water ? and if so why should I believe that ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-03-12 23:41 ]
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vlad
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| Posted 13-03-2013 at 07:07
Hi, ledgehammer
Once I was living in a society, which was very restrictive as for any deviations from general norms of behaviour. So when I first got hold of an instruction book on dowsing, I couldn`t use pendulums and rods for that reason.
From the very start, I was forced to rely upon the inner reactions of my body, which I investigated to supplant the external tools. It turned out that muscle groups along spine reacted in specific way under different circumstances. Then I also discovered that following movements of the internal "focus of awareness" might broaden the range of natural signals, which could be perceived with one`s bare body. I combined it with the ancient model of mythical correspondences between the Man and Cosmos and that`s that.
In this way I missed my place in the chain of modern dowsing evolution. How should I name it!? - Maybe I underwent "devolution" instead?
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-13 18:41 ]
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vlad
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 13:18
My copy of the latest book by T.Graves is kept under air transport since 5 days, because of winter problems. So maybe I note down some thoughts coming to the surface when confronted with the "Needles of Sones revisited" again, after many years.
Well; I always liked the monstrous offspring of Gaia. At the same time I wondered how for instance could Typhon be strong enough to overcome Zeus in Cilicia (the Korykian Cave). I considered "sons" of Gaia as a feeble brood, taking as example giants fought by Herakles. But it`s not right. You can obviously have very broad yang paths against background of even broader yin ones, which would correspond to the relation between Typhon and Gaia.
Now as for STONEHENGE. In the centre there`s a kind of a womb opened roughly towards NE. Has the whole area a female character? Or maybe you know some "offspring" of Stonehenge Gaia haunting the environment, especially in winter?... Oups; I mean black streams or paths around Stonehenge, acc. to the terminology of Tom Graves.
Isn`t it unsafe? You have still the life-energy streams in their old channels but you`ve lost contact to their protectors and moderators, which could help you in case of emergency.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-14 14:10 ]
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ledgehammer
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 17:54
Quote:
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On 2013-03-12 23:40, tiompan wrote:
Hello Tom , long time no hear from . would you mind answering a question please .
If I dowse in my garden concentrating on the thought of water and at certain points the rods close and when these points are plotted they prove to be in a roughly straight line should I believe that I have discovered anything ? is it likely to be water ? and if so why should I believe that ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-03-12 23:41 ]
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George,
Honestly, I cannot say > I cannot speak for others so I am not sure what you would find. Have you seen any Goblins in your garden 
If it was me dowsing in your garden in the situation you have listed, I would think it possible I had found water, although when I dowse for water it is never normally in a straight line, more like smaller straight lines but this may well be the dowsing response . I have in the past while dowsing for other things found water to be an interference, and often I have thought I had dowsed something and later realised it has in fact been water. Like i have said previously, dowsing is no means an exact science.
With anything it takes time to formulate faith in your skill (in this case dowsing), I simply do not have the level of faith needed to trust it 100%, and it is useful to check with others in that kind of situation - I do not intend on making a living finding water, but dowsing nether less is a useful tool for my purposes 
I would also add that if I needed to find water I am pretty confident I would be able to, and that I am afraid I cannot explain
Best
Tom
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ledgehammer
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from Surrey
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 17:58
Quote:
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On 2013-03-13 07:07, vlad wrote:
Hi, ledgehammer
Once I was living in a society, which was very restrictive as for any deviations from general norms of behaviour. So when I first got hold of an instruction book on dowsing, I couldn`t use pendulums and rods for that reason.
From the very start, I was forced to rely upon the inner reactions of my body, which I investigated to supplant the external tools. It turned out that muscle groups along spine reacted in specific way under different circumstances. Then I also discovered that following movements of the internal "focus of awareness" might broaden the range of natural signals, which could be perceived with one`s bare body. I combined it with the ancient model of mythical correspondences between the Man and Cosmos and that`s that.
In this way I missed my place in the chain of modern dowsing evolution. How should I name it!? - Maybe I underwent "devolution" instead?
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-13 18:41 ]
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Vlad,
perhaps, again I am trying to keep things relevant to me and my experiences but what you have said seems consistent.
going slightly off topic, I am in Stockholm from the 19-22 of March If you are nearby and free?
Best
Tom
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tiompan
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 18:31
Quote:
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On 2013-03-14 17:54, ledgehammer wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-03-12 23:40, tiompan wrote:
Hello Tom , long time no hear from . would you mind answering a question please .
If I dowse in my garden concentrating on the thought of water and at certain points the rods close and when these points are plotted they prove to be in a roughly straight line should I believe that I have discovered anything ? is it likely to be water ? and if so why should I believe that ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-03-12 23:41 ]
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George,
Honestly, I cannot say > I cannot speak for others so I am not sure what you would find. Have you seen any Goblins in your garden
If it was me dowsing in your garden in the situation you have listed, I would think it possible I had found water, although when I dowse for water it is never normally in a straight line, more like smaller straight lines but this may well be the dowsing response . I have in the past while dowsing for other things found water to be an interference, and often I have thought I had dowsed something and later realised it has in fact been water. Like i have said previously, dowsing is no means an exact science.
With anything it takes time to formulate faith in your skill (in this case dowsing), I simply do not have the level of faith needed to trust it 100%, and it is useful to check with others in that kind of situation - I do not intend on making a living finding water, but dowsing nether less is a useful tool for my purposes
I would also add that if I needed to find water I am pretty confident I would be able to, and that I am afraid I cannot explain
Best
Tom
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Thanks Tom , another question from your comments .When you thought that you had dowsed something but later discovered that it was water , how did you know it was water .?
george
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vlad
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 21:06
Thanks for your feedback but sorry, Tom; I`m just leaving for the continent to spend Easter with my friends and family there. Maybe we `ll meet some other time.
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ledgehammer
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 23:29
Quote:
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On 2013-03-14 18:31, tiompan wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-03-14 17:54, ledgehammer wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-03-12 23:40, tiompan wrote:
Hello Tom , long time no hear from . would you mind answering a question please .
If I dowse in my garden concentrating on the thought of water and at certain points the rods close and when these points are plotted they prove to be in a roughly straight line should I believe that I have discovered anything ? is it likely to be water ? and if so why should I believe that ?
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2013-03-12 23:41 ]
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|
George,
Honestly, I cannot say > I cannot speak for others so I am not sure what you would find. Have you seen any Goblins in your garden
If it was me dowsing in your garden in the situation you have listed, I would think it possible I had found water, although when I dowse for water it is never normally in a straight line, more like smaller straight lines but this may well be the dowsing response . I have in the past while dowsing for other things found water to be an interference, and often I have thought I had dowsed something and later realised it has in fact been water. Like i have said previously, dowsing is no means an exact science.
With anything it takes time to formulate faith in your skill (in this case dowsing), I simply do not have the level of faith needed to trust it 100%, and it is useful to check with others in that kind of situation - I do not intend on making a living finding water, but dowsing nether less is a useful tool for my purposes
I would also add that if I needed to find water I am pretty confident I would be able to, and that I am afraid I cannot explain
Best
Tom
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Thanks Tom , another question from your comments .When you thought that you had dowsed something but later discovered that it was water , how did you know it was water .?
george
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George,
Once or twice with archeological dowsers, once I can recall informed by the Lord of Loosely manor in Guildford, he knew the precise location of the old drain and well. Another was at an Abbey in which It was revealed that the site was built on water lines (less accurate of course). Also several times when I eventually was bought to a round barrow on St Martha hill, Guildford which has been converted into a reservoir, and on checking and following I have found myself coming to a manhole type cover with the sound of rushing water underneath. (I just noticed and the round barrows are not on the M.P map but Im pretty sure I have seen it on the site before). I did chuckle to myself, but really I felt for quite some time that the energy as we call it was a mere consequence of water, but after some more research it is a phenomena that does not total the other. Well, unless there are rivers of water everywhere under the surface of the earth and Im pretty sure we can discount that one hey
In the most part I have found what other dowsers have found to be water in the past I have mistaken as energy but we are talking the same widths and locations within a very close proximity ( a few inches to a few feet, which is normal for the kind of movement we are talking about). I do envision water as energy in the most part so I have always felt its a lack of dowsing differential. Also like I said I find that when dowsing for anything water will always override anything else : this is what I alone have found, but personally I think it makes a lot of sense.
I can again only speak for myself
Best
Tom
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ledgehammer
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 23:32
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On 2013-03-14 21:06, vlad wrote:
Thanks for your feedback but sorry, Tom; I`m just leaving for the continent to spend Easter with my friends and family there. Maybe we `ll meet some other time.
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Vlad,
No problem
enjoy the holiday period
Best
Tom
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tiompan
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| Posted 14-03-2013 at 23:53
Tom , I think underground water is very common in this country , dig deep enough and you'll hit the water table etc .The Rio hamza is under the Amazon and gets to 400 Km wide .
George
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vlad
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| Posted 15-03-2013 at 06:30
Still some notes. If you are interested in "devolution" of dowsing, here are some initial informations : -
Probably some 15 per cent of all dowsers use no external tools but parts of own body only. Here`s an initial exercise. Stand in front of a "line" you use for testing your tools. Put tools aside. Straighten your arm so that your underarm crosses the
line. Move your underarm to and fro like a saw across the line and concentrate on feeling of an energy surge, which accompanies the movement. Then, try to decide which side of the borderline is yin and which is yang. Use possibly other parts of your body as comparing standards to do that. (Front is yin, back is yang, etc.)
Yes; it`s about Chinese geomancy exercises. Google for "correspondence Man-Cosmos" and collect some taoist sources to study the topic. When I`m back, we can discuss your results.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-15 06:37 ]
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ledgehammer
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| Posted 15-03-2013 at 10:00
Quote:
|
On 2013-03-15 06:30, vlad wrote:
Still some notes. If you are interested in "devolution" of dowsing, here are some initial informations : -
Probably some 15 per cent of all dowsers use no external tools but parts of own body only. Here`s an initial exercise. Stand in front of a "line" you use for testing your tools. Put tools aside. Straighten your arm so that your underarm crosses the
line. Move your underarm to and fro like a saw across the line and concentrate on feeling of an energy surge, which accompanies the movement. Then, try to decide which side of the borderline is yin and which is yang. Use possibly other parts of your body as comparing standards to do that. (Front is yin, back is yang, etc.)
Yes; it`s about Chinese geomancy exercises. Google for "correspondence Man-Cosmos" and collect some taoist sources to study the topic. When I`m back, we can discuss your results.
[ This message was edited by: vlad on 2013-03-15 06:37 ]
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Vlad,
very useful
thankyou
Best
Tom
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