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Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> People, stones, stone circles, Stonehenge and much, much, earlier:- Gobekli Tepe.
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People, stones, stone circles, Stonehenge and much, much, earlier:- Gobekli Tepe. |
jonm
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|  Posted 07-02-2013 at 17:59
Quote:
| the rising and setting sun. The crucial thing being to determine precisely when these events took place on the horizon! |
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It's an interesting idea, but it's an assumption that they were interested in the timing?
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Elijah
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 08:45
Hi Ryszard
It appears that my posts have caused your conversation to be moved to the mysteries forum. A pity the move was not accompanied by some clarity. I'm a newbie feeling my way around this site and its forums, so please accept my apology.
To the moderator; if you have these strict rules, why don't you highlight them somewhere. Say, as a header at the beginning of each forum?
John
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Martin_L
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 09:28
"To the moderator; if you have these strict rules, why don't you highlight them somewhere. Say, as a header at the beginning of each forum?"
I am no moderator here, but if you look at the main forum page you will see a description highlighting the purpose/topics of any of the subfora.
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 09:49
Quote:
| On 2013-02-08 08:45, Elijah wrote:
To the moderator; if you have these strict rules, why don't you highlight them somewhere. Say, as a header at the beginning of each forum? |
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"Stones Forum - For mainstream discussion and questions on megaliths or prehistory in general. Please use the 'Sacred Sites' forum below for discussion of alternative theories or other esoteric aspects.
"Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries - If you want to discuss alternative ideas relating to ancient sites, theories involving [...] ritual, or other such things then this is the place to discuss them."
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=index
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Elijah
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 10:05
Hi Jon
Quote:
| I wrote... "the rising and setting sun. The crucial thing being to determine precisely when these events took place on the horizon!" You replied... "It's an interesting idea, but it's an assumption that they were interested in the timing?" |
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There are a number of reasons why I see the timing of the rising and setting sun as important.
First, the universal practice of the dawn/dusk blood sacrifice.
Second, the priestly interest in the heliacal rising of stars; an indication that they needed to predict the precise position of the rising and setting sun on the horizon.
Third, as the sun sets and rises on the horizon, the earth's magnetic field lines begin to oscillate. These "micropulsations" are triggered by sunspot activity; their ejected streams of charged particles interacting with our magnetosphere. The resulting "micropulsations" then travel along the magnetic field lines towards the surface of the earth; a phenomenon known to peak at dawn and dusk. Apart from the rising and setting sun, ancient people would have been unaware of this magnetic disturbance at their sacred sites. These "micropulsations are also triggered by seismic activity here on earth; another event that was liable to see ancient prophets and priests making sacrificial offerings.
Whilst my research has discovered plenty of scientific evidence showing that these "micropulsation" interact with, and adversely effect the human vascular system, there is some evidence, both from the work of the Paul Devereux and the "Dragon Project" and Pierre Mereaux at Carnac, to suggest that megalithic sites are somehow susceptible to these micropulsations. I'll leave you to connect the dots.
--------------------------------
David
Thanks for the link, precisely what I need. Can I ask where that particular page can be found amongst your various drop down menus?
John
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Elijah
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 10:18
Thanks Martin, David
Finally found the page on your side menu under the title "forum". Guess I'll have to spend more time familiarizing myself with your site.
John
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bat400
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 14:33
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On 2013-02-08 10:05, Elijah wrote:
...Whilst my research has discovered plenty of scientific evidence showing that these "micropulsation" interact with, and adversely effect the human vascular system, ..... I'll leave you to connect the dots. |
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What's the magnitude of magnetic field change due to sunrise/set?
What kind of experimentation was performed to determine the effect of magnetic field change associated with sunset/rise on the human vascular system?
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jonm
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 16:20
Quote:
| First, the universal practice of the dawn/dusk blood sacrifice.
Second, the priestly interest in the heliacal rising of stars; an indication that they needed to predict the precise position of the rising and setting sun on the horizon.
Third, as the sun sets and rises on the horizon, the earth's magnetic field lines begin to oscillate. |
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How do you know there was a practice of blood sacrifice?
How do you know that there was an interest in helical rising (and what do you mean by helical?)
The third one is a bit of a mystery: If the earth is rotating in space, why would a sunset change its magnetic field? Are you talking about local magnetic effects?
I'm having difficulty joining the dots because I'm not sure what you're suggesting.
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ryszard
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| Posted 08-02-2013 at 17:04
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On 2013-02-08 08:45, Elijah wrote:
Hi Ryszard
It appears that my posts have caused your conversation to be moved to the mysteries forum. A pity the move was not accompanied by some clarity. I'm a newbie feeling my way around this site and its forums, so please accept my apology.
To the moderator; if you have these strict rules, why don't you highlight them somewhere. Say, as a header at the beginning of each forum?
John
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No need to apologize. I said in my last post here that I have no objection to the move if this was thought to be right and proper by the mods.
I agree about the closed minds of many archeologists, but think they are sometimes right in fearing the consequences of any unorthodox opinions that they might express being magnified out of all proportion and sensationalized by the news-hungry and largely unethical media. That sort of thing would reflect badly on their reputations and would perhaps affect their academic careers.
I agree that the sun, moon and stars were closely observed in prehistory in their day to day, month to month, and season to season variation, and that some or all of these were at one time and another considered to be gods, or their properties were considered to be acts of god/gods. But I have insufficient knowledge of the details of ceremonies that accompanied these natural phenomena and the superstitions that the phenomena gave rise to. Some of these have persisted, eg Catholic churches with the altar in the east, and in England at one time with the altar not just in the east but in the direction of the sunrise at that locality on the day of the year dedicated to the saint after whom the church was named.
Stones and churches were put up by men, and their arrangement implies things about these men and their beliefs.
[ This message was edited by: ryszard on 2013-02-08 17:17 ]
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Elijah
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 09:05
Hi Bat
The quickest way to answer your questions is to provide you with links to scientific papers that provide an overview of their properties and solar/seismic inducement; in some cases these will be only abstracts, but they will suffice.
First, I’m not referring to the strength of the magnetic field, (which as you may know, has been declining rapidly for some millennia) but of ultra low frequency oscillations that occur in its field lines; the term for them being “micropulsations”. Here’s a few links that will explain further - http://www.whoi.edu/science/AOPE/emworkshop/pdf/mcpherron.pdf
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003AGUFM.T51E0209R
Second, here’s another few links that will explain the dusk/dawn nature of these magnetic pulsations - http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1884309
http://magbase.rssi.ru/REFMAN/SPPHTEXT/pc5.html
Third, here are some more links that will explain our emerging awareness of the biological and haematological effects of these ULF magnetic pulsations - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12653180
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273117701003787
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11605400
http://www.ann-geophys.net/23/2997/2005/angeo-23-2997-2005.pdf
http://hgibson.laurentian.ca/NR/rdonlyres/4ECD54BA-2525-445C-9AAA-1D21A371493B/0/PMSJune1973Part2_0027.pdf
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Link-Between-Solar-Flares-And-Strokes-Under-Study-9746-1/
Hi Jon
You’ll find an explanation for your “sunset” question in the “second” set of links above.
As to your question… “How do I know there was a practice of sacrifice?” – The answer is simple, forty years of study. Venerating the dead and the gods (the principle god being the sun) was a hugely important aspect of ancient life. Blood was universally seen as containing the spirit, hence its many taboos and its ritual liberation. It’s not a widely publicised area of antiquity for obvious, and not so obvious reasons, but if you can imagine the rising sun being heralded by countless sacrificial acts and the smoke from countless sacrificial pyres spiralling into the sky, you might get a flavour for the industrial nature of this puzzling ancient practice.
You also asked about “helical rising”; which you inadvertently misspell, I actually wrote “heliacal”. It refers to a star or cluster of stars, etc, rising just prior to the sun on the horizon. A fuller description of this important subject can be found here… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising
Hi Ryszard
I understand the point you make about the academic careers of these historians, but there is something odd about the academic treatment of this ancient blood sacrifice. Besides it being a very cloistered subject, there is an anthropological admission that the origins and spread of blood sacrifice may never be explained; certainly the psychologists delegated by anthropology to explain this mystery have failed in their task. I am here to argue that the history of blood sacrifice is not only a vital question for this site, but those of others who ponder the purpose of Mesopotamia’s ziggurats, the pyramids of Egypt, and those of Central America; not to mention the many divine temples that spread outwards from the Eastern Mediterranean region. I find it inconceivable that megalithic uprights were once the focus of sacrificial activity everywhere else on earth, but not in the British Isles, as some have suggested?
Anthropologists have long suspected a link between “myth” and “ritual” but have failed to identify the relationship. I believe that this is because not only have they deemed ancient blood sacrifice to be a symbolic act, they have characterised its widely proclaimed “miracles” as myths and lies. It is only when you consider the actual occurrence of these phenomena that you begin to see how they gave birth to mythology. And as you instinctively suggest, the trappings of blood sacrifice form an integral part of the Christian myth.
With regard to the relationship between sun and stars, perhaps the best and most widely referred to conjunction is that of the sun and the Pleiades, the seven stars of which suffuse the mythology of the ancient world in many guises. This is often mentioned in relationship to the agricultural seasons, but I would argue its sacrificial significance; keeping the sacrificial calendar was a priestly prerequisite.
Have I provided enough evidence as to the environmental aspects of this ancient ritual process?
Would you like me to explain what my findings suggest was the locations criteria for the building of megalithic structures, and how this lent itself to the inducement of a known, but extremely rare, biological reaction?
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 11:07
Have I provided enough evidence as to the environmental aspects of this ancient ritual process?
I would say no, you haven't.
Although it is probable that ritual came about through environmental influences, I would say that those influences were more to do with the belief in the intentionality of natural processes, rather than any physiological changes brought about by EM radiation. And that blood sacrifice is the culmination of a superstitious "arms race" in the war against/appeasement of perceived outside influences.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2013-02-09 11:14 ]
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Elijah
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 14:48
Hi David
Quote:
| I would say no, you haven't.
Although it is probable that ritual came about through environmental influences |
|
I agree. Something kick-started this behavior, and in my scenario this was the occurrence of an alarming phenomena, perceived to be a spiritual, which was brought on by acts of butchery on flat rocky escarpments or the rocky mouths of caves.
Quote:
| I would say that those influences were more to do with the belief in the intentionality of natural processes, rather than any physiological changes brought about by EM radiation. |
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Some of the best minds in the world have sought a psychological explanation for our species adoption of blood sacrifice... and failed?
Quote:
| And that blood sacrifice is the culmination of a superstitious "arms race" in the war against/appeasement of perceived outside influences. |
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Please explain?
John
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Elijah
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 15:14
David
I missed your inference that I was suggesting that the origins of blood sacrifice arose from psychological changes wrought about by EM radiation.
This is not the case. If you read the article I posted earlier in this thread you will see that my evidence suggests something much more unlikely, but which has plenty of evidence to support it. http://andrewgough.co.uk/secretorigins.html
John
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jonm
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 17:50
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| Hi Jon
You’ll find an explanation for your “sunset” question in the “second” set of links above. |
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Link didn't work when I tried it.
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Andy B
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 19:57
> It appears that my posts have caused your conversation to be moved to the mysteries forum. A pity the move was not accompanied by some clarity.
Elijah, this is a fair point and is not a fault of our moderators, but unfortunately a limitation of our forum system which doesn't leave any trace in the old forum to indicate that a thread has been moved. This rarely comes up as we don't very often move existing threads.
Could I suggest to moderators that if you are going to move an existing thread with several posts that you let people know by posting in the thread first, then move the thread the next day. A bit of a pain but then everyone can keep up.
It is also a fair point that there is no note about the rules or content of the forum on the internal page
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewforum&forum=4
I will have a look at adding that if I can.
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sem
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 21:39
Hi Elijah
You don't seem to have answered BAT400's question "What's the magnitude of magnetic field change due to sunrise/set?"
Could you give us an answer in layman's terms as opposed to the links - I don't have a degree in physics!
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 09-02-2013 at 22:23
I think this thread has become a little entangled. I propose that both ryszard and Elijah should start again with new threads where each can present their own ideas.
For myself, I'm more interested in continuing ryszard's original idea of the possibility of the spread of megalithic structures from the Near East and if this theory holds water or not.
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bat400
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| Posted 10-02-2013 at 05:06
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On 2013-02-09 15:14, Elijah wrote:
I missed [davidmorgan's] inference that I was suggesting that the origins of blood sacrifice arose from psychological changes wrought about by EM radiation.
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I don't think you're being very clear, either.
Because, that is exactly what I thought you were getting at as well.
As you write
Quote:
| ...analysis suggests that these widespread ancient claims of miracles are actually records of induced biological enigma! |
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I thought your statements meant that you think:
The origin of ritual sacrefice was a response to physiological effects that created the impression of miracles in the population.
That these physiological effects were produced by electronmagnetic changes occurring at sunrises and sunsets.
Is that what you mean, or not?
What DO all your comments about ULF energy have to do with Andrew Gough's contention that characteristics of the blood that cause spontaneous human combustion and "glowing" blood influenced blood sacrefice and the envolution of virtually all religion?
Are you saying that ULF energy is the cause of these "miraculous" incidents associated with blood?
For the sake of clarity, why don't you "connect the dots" here?
(And, yes, I think this qualifies as an alternative theory and belongs in this forum...) 
[ This message was edited by: bat400 on 2013-02-10 05:14 ]
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jonm
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| Posted 10-02-2013 at 08:59
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| I think this thread has become a little entangled. I propose that both ryszard and Elijah should start again with new threads where each can present their own ideas. |
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I agree. I am very confused by this thread: Probably best to abandon it and split into two.
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Elijah
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| Posted 10-02-2013 at 11:03
See new thread - The sacrificial origins of religion and its edifices, etc.
John
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2013-02-10 15:02 ]
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