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The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones |
enorm
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|  Posted 15-03-2013 at 10:03
Hi George - where we have a difference in "number count" I would be interested to identify them. Could you have a look at the PDF I have added to my web site (address in previous posting) to see if you can "spot the differences", please?
Many thanks - Norman / enorm
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tiompan
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| Posted 15-03-2013 at 10:42
Enorm , in your annexe list the Dunfallandy stone is listed but there is no below noted for the Beast below CV . In the Beast / DDZ I have have counted the two beasts in Glenferness .
George .
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iainforbespict
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| Posted 15-03-2013 at 11:45
Hi everyone , very interested in the discussion here. My own theory is that the symbols are astronomical / astrological in nature (my blog is here: http://lastofthedruids.com/ with details of my book published last year). I also contend that some of the scenes found on Pictish Class II stones are celestial calendars, and relate to the event commemorated by the stone.
There are also parallels between some of the figures depicted and Celtic and wider Indo-European mythology. Many of these have celestial contexts. The most obvious hints at astronomical links with the actual symbols are the double disc, with solar imagery, and the crescent with lunar imagery. These are of course the most frequent rodded symbols.
My theory regarding the symbol system is that they are relating the most important events in the heavens on a partcular day, in a similar way to modern horoscopes which might focus on the position of the sun. moon or planets in constellations. Their purpose therefore may be that they are proclaiming that this is an auspicious day or indeed inauspicious day connected to the monuments purpose. So, the consecration of a church might take place on a day deemed auspicious and accompanying symbols would be proclaiming to all and sundry that this is the case.
The mirror and comb symbols appear to be linked to divination (plenty of evidence for use of mirrors in divination, some also for combs). These symbols may be reinforcing the astrological message or even providing information on the identity of the astrologer/druid/priest behind the divination. It is known that 'druids' survived the introduction of Christianity in Ireland and Scotland with their roles somewhat reduced, but that they continued to read the stars. Surprisingly, St Columba brought with him on his travels his own personal druid. Similarly Saint Brigit's father (a druid) foretold of her greatness by star divination.
Hope this adds to your discussion.
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tiompan
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| Posted 16-03-2013 at 18:32
Enorm ,
Just a few points .
I don't see a resemblance between the Beast and a leonine creature , the heads are quite different but more specifically the leontocephalous is a lion headed two footed god whereas the beast is four footed so, I can't see it as contender .
I make Largo , class 2 .
Proximity is not only found between the Beast and Mirror and Beast and DDZ but is typical of many symbols on many stones .
If there is a significance for the CV being at the top of a Class 1 stone then ,when there are two or more symbols involved the CV is top in 28 examples but there are 26 examples where it isn't .In Class 2 there are 9 where it is top and 9 where it isn't .
There is quite a big difference between Class 1 and 2 in the direction the Beasts head faces , in Class 1 only 2 or 8% face left whilst in Class 2 it is 62% . Another example of the mirror inverting symbol pairs is found with the Beast and Fish once again there are only three examples in both classes but the “rule “ does apply .
The reverse of Kintore 2 is anomalous in that it is the only case where a mirror is found above a symbol or pair of symbols in all Class 1 stones including when the mirror is associated with a comb . It may be explained by the fact that the two symbols are upside down when the stone is looked at vertically .
George
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enorm
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| Posted 20-03-2013 at 10:07
Association of the Pictish Beast Symbol with Other Symbols - Additional Decodes for the Pictish Beast and the V-Rod & Crescent
George – many thanks for all your responses. These have prompted a review of the instances where the Pictish Beast and the V-Rod & Crescent symbols are positioned together to see if their meaning and purpose are enhanced by their positioning. Here are my findings; a full analysis will be in Annexe 1 of my website.
The Pictish Beast may represent the sea goat which is the astrological sign of Capricorn. The Capricorn constellation is intersected by the Milky Way and astrologically is the Gate of the Gods through which the soul travels on its return following death and into immortality. This is consistent with Mithraic beliefs of the soul travel at birth and death. Therefore, the Pictish Beast could signify Capricorn and on a Stone could act as a “pointer” to that constellation, or at least a reminder.
The crescent shape in the V-Rod & Crescent symbol can be made more specific than “Celestial Sphere” or “Heaven” and be considered to represent the Milky Way – astrologically the home of the soul. The shape is consistent with a skyward view – which is the complementary part to the Symbol Stone in my proposition for an Open-Air Mithraeum.
An initiate given this information would be able to identify the constellation and the Milky Way in the night sky and pursue (however this was done) the belief set or religion what was Pictish Mithraism.
Significant propositions, I think, and ones that not only further reinforce my thesis about the religious purpose of the early Pictish Symbol Stones being for the pursuit of Pictish Mithraism but also in understanding their continued appearance on “transition” Stones.
[ This message was edited by: enorm on 2013-03-20 10:09 ]
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iainforbespict
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| Posted 20-03-2013 at 12:01
Norm,
I totally agree with the comment on Capricorn and the Beast symbol. I presented evidence of this connection in my book last year, also pointing out links it has with the Hindu 'Makara' (Capricorn) in terms of symbolism and mythology. I am also of the opinion that the symbols are astronomical, although I would disagree that they represent constellations as such but rather prominent stars around the eclipitic. My book outlines further connections between specific symbols and stars. Thus the symbols form an astrological system, probably lunar/solar.
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tiompan
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| Posted 20-03-2013 at 19:33
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On 2013-03-20 10:07, enorm wrote:
Association of the Pictish Beast Symbol with Other Symbols - Additional Decodes for the Pictish Beast and the V-Rod & Crescent
George – many thanks for all your responses. These have prompted a review of the instances where the Pictish Beast and the V-Rod & Crescent symbols are positioned together to see if their meaning and purpose are enhanced by their positioning. Here are my findings; a full analysis will be in Annexe 1 of my website.
The Pictish Beast may represent the sea goat which is the astrological sign of Capricorn. The Capricorn constellation is intersected by the Milky Way and astrologically is the Gate of the Gods through which the soul travels on its return following death and into immortality. This is consistent with Mithraic beliefs of the soul travel at birth and death. Therefore, the Pictish Beast could signify Capricorn and on a Stone could act as a “pointer” to that constellation, or at least a reminder.
The crescent shape in the V-Rod & Crescent symbol can be made more specific than “Celestial Sphere” or “Heaven” and be considered to represent the Milky Way – astrologically the home of the soul. The shape is consistent with a skyward view – which is the complementary part to the Symbol Stone in my proposition for an Open-Air Mithraeum.
An initiate given this information would be able to identify the constellation and the Milky Way in the night sky and pursue (however this was done) the belief set or religion what was Pictish Mithraism.
Significant propositions, I think, and ones that not only further reinforce my thesis about the religious purpose of the early Pictish Symbol Stones being for the pursuit of Pictish Mithraism but also in understanding their continued appearance on “transition” Stones.
[ This message was edited by: enorm on 2013-03-20 10:09 ]
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Enorm , Sorry ,but I find the connection to the Pictish Beast problematic . The Sea Goat has horns , cloven feet , a short head ,the tail of a fish ,a mane and a “beard “ .
The lappet of the Beast is not horns , the feet are not cloven , the head is more snoutlike and long , the tail is mammalian and not short tailed like a goat and there is no mane or beard .
Another hybrid in the Pictish bestiary , the Hippocamp (Brodie , Ulbster etc ) has a greater resemblance to the Sea Goat and Makara .
George
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enorm
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| Posted 22-03-2013 at 11:16
George – my revised Annexe is accessible from http://79.170.44.131/pictish-mithraism.com/page47.php
I am not surprised by your comments of 20 March as I have had a great difficulty in trying to decode the Pictish Beast. Indeed there are several “structural” differences but I have found with the Symbols that there are elements of deeper coding probably done to deliberately obscure the meaning to non-initiates. I mention hippocamps in the annexe – they are Class 2 carvings often intertwined (a style seen also in Norway – doorway examples in the cast court of the V&A, London) or opposing pairs. More significantly the hippocamps being Class 2 arguably come from a later time for Pictish Symbol Stones maybe with a Christian context; whereas the Pictish Beast is on both Class 1 and 2 Stones. A further complication arises as hippocamps are recorded as far back as 600 BCE.
Regards - Norman
Appendices & Annexe
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-03-2013 at 12:31
Enorm , yes the hippocamp was probably a Roman influence . The christian Ketos and other beasts were often used in later sculptures on either sides of cross shafts ,Isobel Henderson considered them to to play a protective role .The reason I mentioned it though is because it is closer stylistically to the Sea Goat than the Beast . The three major symbols CV ,DDZ , Beast , are the most difficult to source .
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 22-03-2013 at 20:19
Interesting??, nes pas??
http://www.lablit.com/article/341
cropredy
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enorm
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| Posted 25-03-2013 at 09:25
Iain – thanks for your input and over a series of posts I hope we can generate a further debate. I have just bought your book – very interesting and I do not think our approaches are too far apart; more comment once I have read more!
Going back to my propositions being “religious” as such, the Mysteries of Mithras are linked to the astronomy and astrology as understood and in use at the time. The earth was considered to be at the centre of the universe with the planets (including the sun and moon giving 7 planets – and “7” was important in Roman Mithraism) rotating around the earth in one direction and the firmament rotating in the opposite direction. This is easy to represent in two dimensions as a dot and two concentric circles –hence my views about Z-Rod and Double Disc symbolism. A three dimensional view would still have the earth at the centre but with a more sophisticated representation of the planets and firmament as two open structured spheres complete with the zodiac, both ecliptic and celestial equators and tilt on the axis.
The original Mithras beliefs surfaced about 2000 years before Roman Mithraism and David Ulansey has made some connections between the, then, constellation positions and the Taurocotony. Just as you have considered the skyward view of 1300 years ago, it is important to understand the relative positions of several constellations such that the Tauroctony occurred at a particular time of the year and has in its component constellations both the bull (Taurus) and Mithras (seen as Perseus above Taurus). So, for the Tauroctony to occur at the spring equinox the astronomical and astrological alignments need to apply to the so-called Age of Taurus (we currently are in the Age of Pisces) – about 4000 years ago. However, this connection with the “earlier” Mithras may be misleading as there is an argument that Roman Mithraism was maybe based on the Persian version but not a direct descendant of it. That said, Roman statues of Mithras do relate to the Tauroctony but that linkage forward to what I have called Pictish Mithraism may have disconnects too.
Mithras is shown in the Tauroctony with a figure on either side – often referred to as his companions. Looking towards the Tauroctony to the viewers left is Cautes (representing the morning star and spring equinox) and to the right Cautopates (representing the evening star and autumn equinox). Relative to Mithras Cautes is on his right and Cautopates on his left.
Other astronomical and astrological linkages can be made to Mithraism. For example, Taurus and Scorpius are in opposing sectors (around 180° apart) as, in effect, are Cautes and Cautopates when representing the equinoxes (which are 180° apart). The equinoxes in the past would have been in Taurus and Scorpius – which are symbolised in the Tauroctony by the bull’s head and the scorpion. Hence my decodes for the Z-Rod and Double Disc with the “arms” being the torches held by Cautes and Cautopates.
What I find fascinating is that no-one (apart from me) has so far picked up on the “waisting” effect of the curved lines by the midline of the “Z”. Taking these with the circles one can visualise a bisected solid annulus (a cut through dough-ring whereby both exposed parts of the cross sections are the same). Maybe this representation reflects a view that may have been held of a “contained” universe with its three key points (at the time) – earth in the middle, moving planets and fixed firmament.
What do you think?
Norman
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enorm
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| Posted 26-03-2013 at 10:49
Cropredy - a very interesting article, thanks, that sparked more reading about Druids for me. I do not see them as the pre-Christian religious “leaders” in Pictland – it looks as if their influence extended to probably West Scotland (Dal Riata) but not much further East / North East. Do you have any ideas on who could have been the “religious leaders” in Pictland?
Norman
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enorm
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| Posted 26-03-2013 at 12:40
Iain – reference your 20 March post, I think there is a mix of astronomical/astrological symbolism – some planets, some constellations that are zodiacal (others maybe not) and probably some specific stars (albeit ones that are parts of constellations). In my original research I listed all the components of a typical Mithraic Tauroctony (e.g. Dog, Raven, Snake etc) and found their celestial counterparts. I have added these to my web site as Annexe 2 at http://pictish-mithraism.com/page47.php
From your investigations and propositions in your book do you think these line up? Mybe our interpretations are not too far apart!
Thanks - Norman
Appendices & Annexes
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iainforbespict
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| Posted 29-03-2013 at 14:16
Hi Norman
Thanks for your posts. Yes, as you say our research, although approaching the problem from different angles, seems to point to the same thing - an astrological/celestial function for the symbols. I've had a quick look at your website and it is excellent. Very refreshing to have someone else challenging the old dogma of names, heraldic devices etc etc. Have you looked at some of the scenes on some of the stones, for example the hunting scene on the Shandwick stone to see if their could be mithraic imagery?
It seems to me that revealing an astrological and therefore astronomical function to the symbols completely revolutionises our thinking about the Picts and their achievements!
Iain
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enorm
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| Posted 10-04-2013 at 10:28
Hi Iain – I intended to reply earlier but have been updating my web site to reflect conclusions from Annexe 1 (whose investigations were prompted by debate on this forum). My latest proposal regarding the Z-Rod and Double Disc is a new post.
It is fundamentally different!! Norman
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enorm
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| Posted 13-05-2013 at 13:30
Hi Iain - I agree with you that the hunting scene on Shandwick has astronomical and astrological interpretations and these fit in well with Mithraism and, therefore, Pictish Mithraism. I identified several carvings that are seen on other Stones - a creature eating, stag, interlaced animals, beast with exaggerated claws etc (all identified instances referenced on my web site). The Pictish Beast faces to the left - only a third of the 51 I have found face left - not sure if there is any significance in this; the shape of them is "standard". There is an indistinct Double Disc (there are 18 of these on the Stones that broadly follow a general pattern split almost 50/50 between those that have the "waisted" effect on the inter-connecting lines and those that are straight parallel lines. Shandwick is a Class 2 Stone covering the "transition" between Pictish Mithraism and Christianity. This makes me wonder if the Double Disc specifically without the Z-Rod suggests some sort of "transition" as well (with the absence of Cautes and Cautopates symbolism i.e the "arms" of the Z) but this is maybe a flimsy interpretation as there are Double Discs alone on Class 1s also.
Regards - Norman
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-05-2013 at 15:27
Norman , a couple of comments . The beast is not always standard as it's back can be straight or sloping .The direction in which it faces is more consistent on Class 1 stones ,as mentioned earlier , "There is quite a big difference between Class 1 and 2 in the direction the Beasts head faces , in Class 1 only 2 or 8% face left whilst in Class 2 it is 62% ."
The double disc has similarities with a relatively common motif in earlier rock art the "dumb bell " where two cup marks are connected with a groove .
George
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