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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries >> The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones
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The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones |
tiompan
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|  Posted 28-01-2013 at 15:03
Hello Enorm , some comments .
a) Similar monuments either side of the time period of the Class 1-2 stones e.g. ogham pillars , post roman inscribed stones commemorate individuals and intriguingly they stop at the point in Scotland where the Pictish stones replace them to the north . Whilst the Dupplin Cross is not class 1or 2 it is in the same area , of the same monument type , Pictish and as we can “read “ it we know that it once again fits into the commemorative typolgy .
b) The pairs also involve the other symbols as well as the more common C& V and DD& Z .
c) that was my point , 55% of the stones are found associated with ecclesiastical or burial sites suggesting a greater likelihood of commemoration but we haven't found any evidence of Mithraeum at any these sites or anywhere else in Pictland . The funerary practice of the area and period tends to be inhumation in square barrows ,long cist , linear cemeteries , heads to the west , I can't think of any cremations . The class 1 stone at Dairy Park Dunrobin was actually found on top a cairn raised over an inhumation , you don't get much closer to a commemoration stone that that . Interestingly Howard Williams pointed out the resemblance of a dumb-bell complex at Lundin Links as resembling a Double Disc ,(personally not convinced with the connection ) .
d) the ogham is not contemporaneous with the symbols but once again the content is commemorative , see above .
e) one problem with syncretism is where you draw the line between two different cosmologies and how one might be recognised within a welter of common symbols and beliefs . The Burghead bulls are very much alive and therefore not obviously associated with taurocton . Being alive we might also sooner see it as being associated with other beliefs from Egyptian Aphis to Minoan bull leaping but maybe more close to home and time period e.g. the Irish Finnbhennach .
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 17:45
Could a triangle be called a V rod????
I reckon it could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNiAe-GRJEw
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 17:47
http://www.stllightworkers.org/spirals/spirals-in-bosnia
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 17:53
Those twin spirals look a lot like an owl???
Good job some can see what most are in the dark about??
http://www.academia.edu/661338/Evidence_of_Vedic_Cosmology_and_Harmonic_Science_in_the_Pyramid_Civilization_of_Ancient_Bosnia
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enorm
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 18:02
George – in reply to the Z Rod point in your posting of 26 January:-
On page 28 of Appendix A of my web site I have drawn 9 variants of the Z Rod florations or “flames”. I am not suggesting the upper and lower arms of the Z are inter-connected arrows or a broken spear but, indeed, representative of Cautes and Cautopates torches. The most numerous Z Rod & Double Disc design which is at Dyce (1), Clatt, Keith Hall, Kintore Castle Hill (1), Logie Elphistone (2), Picardy, Aberlemno Roadside (1) and Cossans shows two flames on the upper arm and one with the same orientation on the lower arm. These align rather well with Cautes holding a lit torch upwards and Cautopates holding an extinguishing torch downwards.
I agree with your point about the angles of the Z or N arms of the Z-Rods not being the same angles as C and C torches – my view is that the Stones show symbols associated with a variant of Roman Mithraism so, arguably, some of the content is hidden though coding so I would not expect to see exact or, indeed, accurate replication.
You mention symbols other than Zs and Vs and I completely agree that a more holistic approach needs to be taken not just restricted to Zs and Vs. Therefore. I have proposed a decode for the bulk of the symbols in the context of a derivation of Roman Mithraism – please see my web site. My views are:- the Mirror has circles which generally depict the relationships between the Zodiac, Planets and Earth; the Comb is not a comb nor is it directly associated with the Mirror – it alludes to Mithraic belief that the soul takes 7 steps (via the planets) between the Cosmos and Earth at one’s birth and 7 steps back to immortality on death – several stones have Combs with 7 teeth such as Collace, Tillytarmont and Inveravon (1); the Mirror Case components can be seen in Roman Mithraic sculpture and show a combination of the rock birth and his supporting the universe by holding the Zodiac; and, finally for here, the Notched Rectangle shapes represent the shape and layout of a Roman Mithraeum plus the Horseshoe / Arch also suggesting the shape of the Mithraeum. I will elaborate separately on the Serpent.
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enorm
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 18:17
Interesting that Vedic Cosmology has been introduced into this thread - Mitra (variant on Mithras) was an Indian God within the pantheon of Vedic Hinduism. In the url referenced there is a sketch of a kudurru - an example in the British Museum led me on the track towards researching Persian belief sets then the "discovery"of Mithraic statues in the Museum of London and the realisation there may be a connection between Mithraism and the Symbols on the Pictish Stones.
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 18:50
enorm,
Look to the vedic fire altars, look to the sequencing.
Fibonacci long before fibonacci.
Think of the winter solstice in an electrical switching way.
Mithras was a switching event, in larger scale.
http://belsebuub.com/articles/the-spiritual-meaning-of-the-winter-solstice
cropredy
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enorm
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 18:59
Hi Rune - a really interesting observation in your post of 28 Jan at 11:27 that some of the V-Rod & Crescents have three shapes within the “V” / Crescent. I had not thought about that before! The range of “3” is wide across religions and timescales from Christian trinity to astrotheological trinities mentioned in the url posted today at 17:53 by cropredy e.g. Ba’al, Asherah and Lilith.
For Mithraism the number “7” is of significance – it is the number of steps the soul takes between the Cosmos and earth on one’s birth then the same number back the way into immortality (via the 7 known planets which used to include the Sun and Moon). There were 7 steps as the progression grades in Mithraism; each of these 7 grades has an associated planet. The Plough has 7 stars – it is the Bear which moves and turns the heavens around.
Back to your “3” – sets of three very clear crescents are on the Broomend, Park House, Kinblethmont, Abdie, Clynekirkton (1), Inveravon (2) and Knockando (1a). Less clear on some others – maybe due to inaccurate carving or my shaky hand drawing with PowerPoint! Glenferness is unusual with three concentric crescents. Got me thinking though – more research to be done!
Norman
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 19:48
With this facility,
http://www.pictishstones.org.uk/pictishstones/pictishstoneshome/aboutthepicts/carvedstones/3dscans/aberlemno_roadside_stone.htm
You can view the stones in 3D,
Is there opposite spirals down the edges of these stones between parallel lines????
cropredy
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tiompan
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 19:54
Enorm , I mentioned five florations at the lenticular end in my first post and although maybe a minor point I think it's worth mentioning that not all the florations are actually directly opposite each other on the side of the rod and also there is the occasional example of a floration on just one side of the rod hence producing an odd number of florations . A close look at Aberlemno 1 shows that the upper floration is nearer the the first bend of the Z the rod than the corresponding lower floration and the there is a single floration on the upper side with no corresponding lower floration .In the same category are Clatt 1 ,Inverurie 3 . Similarly the tail end also has florations that do not meet and also odd numbers of florations .
The same type of design also applies to some V rods eg Crichie ,Inveravon 2 ,Park House Kinblethmont etc where there are two clear florations not directly opposite each other at the lenticular end .
While the comb is not always associated with the mirror , usually due to the stone being fragmentary , I can't agree , unless I have misunderstood , that it is not a comb . Mirror and comb go together and they are are accurately represented . Is seven from forty five Class 1 and 2 stones enough to suggest a pattern ?
George
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enorm
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| Posted 29-01-2013 at 13:20
Returning to Runemage’s post of 28 January at 12:34.
What looks like a good prospect of megaliths made into “cross stones” are those at Tullich – some of the slabs are quite tall with simply incised Christian crosses (none of the so-called Class 3 variety) and one Symbol Stone. Two are like a four spoke wheel (Anglo-Saxon / simplified Templar design?). St Nathalan [Nachlan, Nachalan] church site has a long history – from founding on or before 678 when the Saint died, to use by Knights Templar then hospitallers with the current building (now remains) being from the 14th century but reconstructed in the Reformation. In Appendix C of my website I have listed many locations of Stones – built into the walls of churches, foundation stones of previous churches, under a pulpit, in kirk yards, built into walls etc. At Inveravon slabs were mounted on an external wall of the church, recently taken into the porch. So, does this mean continued reverence, acceptance or superstition? For those stones that were under churches was it to obscure them; when they were more recently found (e.g. the building of a replacement church) had their meaning gone so they posed no threat? Certainly seems it was not an issue taking the artefacts of an older belief set physically close to a newer one. This is why I see the so-called Class 2 stones as “transition” with symbols from what I have called Pictish Mithraism on the same stones as Christian crosses and depiction of Bible stories.
Broomend of Crichie has a Symbol Stone located with the circle / henge. The Stone was moved there during nearby building development. Perhaps it was part of the circle originally then made into an incised Stone (V-Rod & Crescent plus Pictish Beast) – another example perhaps of progression from one belief set to another.
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tiompan
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| Posted 29-01-2013 at 14:52
Enorm , the Pictish stones bearing cup marks , Abetlemno 1 , Dingwall , Ardjachie , and Rhynie 5 were almost cetainly much earlier monuments , although not necessarily erect , than the later engraved stones .
George
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enorm
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| Posted 29-01-2013 at 15:31
Referring to cropredy posts of 28 January 14:41, 14:54, 17:45 and 17:47
Over several years I searched across European sources looking for carvings similar to the Pictish Symbol Stones ones – from Akkadian times onwards to Sassanian. Nearly thought I had something with Turkic tamgas – not quite – likewise symbols on Roman altars. The research into Mithraism showed nothing direct. Whilst there are some likenesses with symbols on the Bosnian Stecaks there is nothing direct – this may be done to methods of coding information in different ways with different symbols. The dating of the Bosnian pyramids would be interesting and I wonder of transition between belief sets is a feature. For example I can see some older symbols such as petal patterns not dissimilar to those on Neo-Assyrian panels form Nimrud (800s BCE) to Christian crosses and round crosses like those on two slabs at Tullich. Some of the curled and interlace style patterns are of Celtic style – geographically makes sense.
I am not so sure a triangle could be called a V-Rod – the V-Rod shape is never seen on its own; there is only one instance of it being combined with symbol other than a Crescent (a Horseshoe/Arch at Migvie).
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enorm
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| Posted 30-01-2013 at 13:55
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On 2013-01-28 15:03, tiompan wrote:
Hello Enorm , some comments .
a) Similar monuments either side of the time period of the Class 1-2 stones e.g. ogham pillars , post roman inscribed stones commemorate individuals and intriguingly they stop at the point in Scotland where the Pictish stones replace them to the north . Whilst the Dupplin Cross is not class 1or 2 it is in the same area , of the same monument type , Pictish and as we can “read “ it we know that it once again fits into the commemorative typolgy .
b) The pairs also involve the other symbols as well as the more common C& V and DD& Z .
c) that was my point , 55% of the stones are found associated with ecclesiastical or burial sites suggesting a greater likelihood of commemoration but we haven't found any evidence of Mithraeum at any these sites or anywhere else in Pictland . The funerary practice of the area and period tends to be inhumation in square barrows ,long cist , linear cemeteries , heads to the west , I can't think of any cremations . The class 1 stone at Dairy Park Dunrobin was actually found on top a cairn raised over an inhumation , you don't get much closer to a commemoration stone that that . Interestingly Howard Williams pointed out the resemblance of a dumb-bell complex at Lundin Links as resembling a Double Disc ,(personally not convinced with the connection ) .
d) the ogham is not contemporaneous with the symbols but once again the content is commemorative , see above .
e) one problem with syncretism is where you draw the line between two different cosmologies and how one might be recognised within a welter of common symbols and beliefs . The Burghead bulls are very much alive and therefore not obviously associated with taurocton . Being alive we might also sooner see it as being associated with other beliefs from Egyptian Aphis to Minoan bull leaping but maybe more close to home and time period e.g. the Irish Finnbhennach .
George
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Dear tiompan – regarding your 28 Jan 15:03 post may I just make a couple of comments.
Item b) Good point - I have seen that there are arguments for pairing other symbols than the C&V and DD&Z.
My own view on pairing concerns the Mirror and Comb which could be almost a pun but with the intent to further obscure the real (in my opinion) meaning or purpose. An initiate could be talked through the Mithraic concept of the 7 steps the soul travels between the Cosmos and Earth on birth and death using the Mirror with the circles to explain the relationships between Cosmos, Planets and Earth and the Comb the steps (in some cases there are 7 “teeth”, otherwise the teeth or lines could be an allusion).
Item c) From my research and propositions, the reason there is no evidence of a Mithraeum at ecclesiastical or, indeed, any other Stone sites is that there were none as they were not needed. My proposal is that Mithraic beliefs were practiced outdoors using a combination of the symbols on the stones and the skyward view. Please see the section on Open Air Mithraeum on my web site at
http://www.pictish-mithraism.com/page21.php
I think the Stone at Dunrobin is the only example of a Pictish Symbol Stone by a Long Cist. There are two others seemingly on/from Barrow/Tumulus – at Garbeg by cairns (near Drumnadrochit) and Keillor. So I cannot dismiss that these might have been used commemoratively but that might not have been the primary purpose.
Item e) I fully agree with your points about syncretism. Some belief sets are absorbed into others, some time expire, others transition etc. If it is the case, I wonder how stories from Irish Mythology might have arrived in NE Scotland (e.g. Burghead) – maybe a source for the bulls resulting from Roman presence may be more likely.
[ This message was edited by: enorm on 2013-01-30 13:57 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 30-01-2013 at 22:44
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On 2013-01-30 13:55, enorm wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-01-28 15:03, tiompan wrote:
Hello Enorm , some comments .
a) Similar monuments either side of the time period of the Class 1-2 stones e.g. ogham pillars , post roman inscribed stones commemorate individuals and intriguingly they stop at the point in Scotland where the Pictish stones replace them to the north . Whilst the Dupplin Cross is not class 1or 2 it is in the same area , of the same monument type , Pictish and as we can “read “ it we know that it once again fits into the commemorative typolgy .
b) The pairs also involve the other symbols as well as the more common C& V and DD& Z .
c) that was my point , 55% of the stones are found associated with ecclesiastical or burial sites suggesting a greater likelihood of commemoration but we haven't found any evidence of Mithraeum at any these sites or anywhere else in Pictland . The funerary practice of the area and period tends to be inhumation in square barrows ,long cist , linear cemeteries , heads to the west , I can't think of any cremations . The class 1 stone at Dairy Park Dunrobin was actually found on top a cairn raised over an inhumation , you don't get much closer to a commemoration stone that that . Interestingly Howard Williams pointed out the resemblance of a dumb-bell complex at Lundin Links as resembling a Double Disc ,(personally not convinced with the connection ) .
d) the ogham is not contemporaneous with the symbols but once again the content is commemorative , see above .
e) one problem with syncretism is where you draw the line between two different cosmologies and how one might be recognised within a welter of common symbols and beliefs . The Burghead bulls are very much alive and therefore not obviously associated with taurocton . Being alive we might also sooner see it as being associated with other beliefs from Egyptian Aphis to Minoan bull leaping but maybe more close to home and time period e.g. the Irish Finnbhennach .
George
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Dear tiompan – regarding your 28 Jan 15:03 post may I just make a couple of comments.
Item b) Good point - I have seen that there are arguments for pairing other symbols than the C&V and DD&Z.
My own view on pairing concerns the Mirror and Comb which could be almost a pun but with the intent to further obscure the real (in my opinion) meaning or purpose. An initiate could be talked through the Mithraic concept of the 7 steps the soul travels between the Cosmos and Earth on birth and death using the Mirror with the circles to explain the relationships between Cosmos, Planets and Earth and the Comb the steps (in some cases there are 7 “teeth”, otherwise the teeth or lines could be an allusion).
Item c) From my research and propositions, the reason there is no evidence of a Mithraeum at ecclesiastical or, indeed, any other Stone sites is that there were none as they were not needed. My proposal is that Mithraic beliefs were practiced outdoors using a combination of the symbols on the stones and the skyward view. Please see the section on Open Air Mithraeum on my web site at
http://www.pictish-mithraism.com/page21.php
I think the Stone at Dunrobin is the only example of a Pictish Symbol Stone by a Long Cist. There are two others seemingly on/from Barrow/Tumulus – at Garbeg by cairns (near Drumnadrochit) and Keillor. So I cannot dismiss that these might have been used commemoratively but that might not have been the primary purpose.
Item e) I fully agree with your points about syncretism. Some belief sets are absorbed into others, some time expire, others transition etc. If it is the case, I wonder how stories from Irish Mythology might have arrived in NE Scotland (e.g. Burghead) – maybe a source for the bulls resulting from Roman presence may be more likely.
[ This message was edited by: enorm on 2013-01-30 13:57 ]
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Hello Enorm , I should point that I don't consider the Mirror and Comb as a pair in the same manner as other paired symbols .
The components of pairs that are found together more than once can be found coupled with other components but the comb is always associated with the mirror , (the one example where it isn't ,Birse , is fragmentary ). The mirror alone or mirror and comb combination can be seen as modifiers of the pairs i.e. their presence or absence can affect the hierarchy or direction of the paired symbols . The genuine pairs are never below the mirror or mirror /comb .
Some other stones directly associated with burials are Ackergill 1&2 (long cist ). Drumbuie 1&2 (cairn) , Easterton of Roseisle (cist ), Golspie (cist) , Inchyra (burial ), Oxtro (cist ), & Watenan (ring cairn) .
George
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enorm
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| Posted 01-02-2013 at 11:25
Thanks for this url. Aberlemno Roadside edges are “Opposite but the same” - like a stick of rock looked at from either end. I cannot suggest a symbolic reason for the opposite spirals – maybe the carver took a template and used, in effect, the “wrong side”; what do you think?
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Runemage
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| Posted 01-02-2013 at 19:22
Wow, wouldn't it be great if every stone could be shown in that kind of detail.
I cannot suggest a symbolic reason for the opposite spirals – maybe the carver took a template and used, in effect, the “wrong side”; what do you think?
Hi Enorm, I think it depends whether you think the edge mirror-image carvings have any significance or if you consider them to be just a pretty pattern. There are many spiral and opposite spiral carvings worldwide, Newgrange entrance stone being the first one that springs to mind. http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=97314
More food for thought than an actual question..... turning the proposition around, would you consider everything else carved on the Aberlemno stone has symbolic significance, and if so, why do you think the spirals carved on it do not have any?
Rune
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cropredy
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| Posted 01-02-2013 at 19:45
Quote:
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On 2013-02-01 11:25, enorm wrote:
Thanks for this url. Aberlemno Roadside edges are “Opposite but the same” - like a stick of rock looked at from either end. I cannot suggest a symbolic reason for the opposite spirals – maybe the carver took a template and used, in effect, the “wrong side”; what do you think?
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You are welcome, it is indeed a wonderfull thing to be able to rotate and stop the stones, I viewed them all very very carefully.
Here's something from cropredy.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bwthornton/8002634307/in/photostream/
See if You can spot any similer , but different features???
The opposite spirals produce fleur de lise, I will try to give a link to the abbey des homme in caen where William the conquerer is entombed, that is opposite spiral city in the extreme.
There is a known feature called Neales walls( bloch walls) where opposite spin magnetic domains create this patterning, and I assure You I can detect and follow the variable patterns inside the parallel lines in which this occurs, especially where a dominant cross feature is a created feature, if You are ever near the rollrights ...let Me know and I will show in great detail the dominant cross , and how it is relevant to the four barrows that would have been there.
cropredy
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-02-2013 at 19:46
Not only are the Pictish scrolls much closer in time and space to Anglo Saxon decoration the animals are also similar to those found engraved in stone and illuminated manuscripts . The period is early medieval , nearly 3 millenia later than the spirals found in passage graves .
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 01-02-2013 at 19:55
enorm,
See if anything looks familier to carvings across time at many megalithic sites???
http://www.science.uva.nl/research/cmp/qem/research_projects/domainwall.html
cropredy
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