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The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones |
rogeralbin
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|  Posted 23-01-2013 at 00:24
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On 2013-01-22 23:47, Andy B wrote:
...perhaps we could get back onto the subject of The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones ... ?
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Point taken Andy,
A few years back I noticed a possible depiction of a head, shoulders,arm hurling a lightening bolt in Le Creux es Fees, which aligns on the equinocial sunrise. So I would caution that the association with the lightening bolt and equinox may be older in the West than the Roman times.
Not being much of a photographer I failed to get a good image and resorted to trying to get a rubbing of the basic shape to enhance freehand later.
Rog
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cropredy
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 08:38
The few artifacts found in monks mound bear a resemblance.
http://www.pictishstones.org.uk/pictishstones/pictishstoneshome/aboutthepicts/society/symbols.htm
The serpent with V rod.....I could draw ....it would though be a local representation of that which is detectable, and how the serpent like flows meander upon the geometry.
They appear serpent like due to the manner in which nearby vortex points ALWAYS have dominant opposite direction circulations( best visualised as cogs in a clock mechanism)
The similarity to animals , just as with how star patterns are likened to animals will have been a method of translation of invisable forces into a visual realmn, imho.
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 08:45
It depends on how the word RELIGION is defined???
IMHO the artifacts are to bring into visualisation what occurs at birth/death times.
Isn't todays religion just that???
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joyem/2359521433/
cropredy
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 11:46
The theory I'm working on is that the Pictish Class I stones are not religious but civic. A proclamation of some sort relating to the local chief, perhaps with a little support from the gods.
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cropredy
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 18:03
The theory I am working on is that the pictish stones show what is occuring locally in an electric/magnetic universe.
This one to Me clearly depicts( de picts) a bloch wall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aberlemno.jpg
What is involved is induction by electric currents( matrix) then as the electric current varies, so does the magnetic field, and this induces a counter magnetic field in a parallel electric current.
The consequences are detectable by dowsing, thus the patterns can be followed with ease.
The cross feature created is at very specific geometry locations where the rotating magnetic fields are then induced to congregrate along a cross feature of polarity and equator.
This bloch wall feature is found where stone circles have been constructed( imho to uprate the potentials there)
And is created when two adjacent cross creations occur, thus leading to the zig zag patternings between the parallel cross walls.
The picts would have had no comprehension of modern day electrical and magnetic properties.
I am trying to bridge that divide, and have spent many years absorbing the current comprehension of electric/magnetic knowledge, it's not very advanced.
The cross feature and the uprated potentials were then entered into the insulated barrows sited along the four arms alignments, there is a reason for their exact location and alignment relative to the cross arms alignments, which again is easily detectable.
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 18:43
If???
You can allow Your mind to be free of indoctrination of current religious garbage??
Then You may be able to view these stones as they were intended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_wall_(magnetism)
It is difficult with our five dominant senses to SEE a magnetic field, but with other senses these are SEEABLE.
We are alive, and are magnetic with polarity and equator( some with vast equators)
We are created and dissolved within this very method, and the cross in particuler has been utilised in all it's variations to justify war.
War is death related....dissolvement.
The battles depicted are related to this half of a duality of creation and destruction, IMHO.
The current religions are simply war mongering business related garbage.
All things turn, the time is right to turn back to creation.
By comprehending how universe operates, and appreciating the efforts left by so many to depict this We can again realise how fantastic this universe is, and send the war mongering lunatics into a spiral of dissolvement.
I need a soap box?
cropredy
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Andy B
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 18:54
The idea that the patterns indicate currents of some sort is intriguing, but could they be water currents? Or indeed air currents - the ones to the bottom left of the cross look like air currents.
Water or air currents are much more distinct and more readily felt by humans than the tiny electric/magnetic currents you're talking about.
Perhaps the carvers were interested in thermodynamics or aerodynamics?
Is that a cue for the ancient aliens people 
Or getting back down to earth, perhaps they are representations of the heating of something by the sun JonM?
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2013-01-23 18:58 ]
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cropredy
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 19:08
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On 2013-01-23 18:54, Andy B wrote:
The idea that the patterns indicate currents of some sort is intriguing, but could they be water currents? Or indeed air currents - the ones to the bottom left of the cross look like air currents.
Water or air currents are much more distinct and more readily felt by humans than the tiny electric/magnetic currents you're talking about.
Perhaps the carvers were interested in thermodynamics or aerodynamics?
Is that a cue for the ancient aliens people
Or getting back down to earth, perhaps they are representations of the heating of something by the sun JonM?
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2013-01-23 18:58 ]
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Andy ,
With respect...immense.
Have You ever considered what enables the atoms of air to so called move???????
What enables each atom of atmosphere to displace.
IMHO,
Each atom has polarity and equator, therefore as they encounter attraction via opposite , they move( displace towards the opposite.
So whether You view the stones depicting the attracted, or the attractor, they actually display the reality.
cropredy
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jonm
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| Posted 23-01-2013 at 20:20
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| Or getting back down to earth, perhaps they are representations of the heating of something by the sun JonM? |
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Could be Andy. Dennis Price writes very convincingly about how quickly the British Isles converted to Christianity: It is possible that the old ways of thinking, perhaps based on understanding the Sun, allowed these types of symbol to be harmoniously integrated into the new thinking?
It does make a bit of sense from a logic perspective: More than someone living nearer the equator, our European ancestors would have realised very quickly that they are wholly dependant on the Sun for their way of life and for life itself. This is almost a given?
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enorm
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 12:01
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On 2013-01-20 14:55, jonm wrote:
I don't know anything about this, but it struck me as interesting that one of the symbols looks very similar to a cut through a doughnut, which is the same as the (possible) geocentric solar representation as at Stonehenge:
Interesting also the 'summer line' shows two symbols whereas the winter line shows only one.
edit.. image made smaller
[ This message was edited by: jonm on 2013-01-20 14:58 ]
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Regarding JONM comment of 20-01-2013 at 14:55 about the Z-Rod and Double Disc appearing like a cut though doughnut, I wondered about this as the centre line symmetry and the artistic “waisting” effect of the curved lines these circles also look like a bisected solid annulus (a cut through dough-ring whereby both exposed parts of the cross sections are the same). This observation and hypothesis applies only to those double discs with the same content in each disc (which is the majority) including those that have off-centre circles (such as Invereen, Struan and Congash). I came to no conclusion – other views would be very interesting.
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enorm
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 12:11
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On 2013-01-22 23:47, Andy B wrote:
...perhaps we could get back onto the subject of The Religious Purpose of the Early Pictish Symbol Stones ... ?
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Perhaps the stones are “multi-purpose”. Whilst I suggest a religious purpose, that does not exclude other uses. In fact religious and astronomical uses would be consistent with the original formulation of Mithraism. The Mysteries of Mithras are indelibly linked to the astronomy and astrology as understood and in use at the time. The earth was considered to be at the centre of the universe with the planets (including, then, the sun and moon) rotating around the earth in one direction and the firmament (Celestial Sphere) rotating in the opposite direction. This is easy to represent in two dimensions as a dot and two concentric circles – as with the Discs on the Pictish Stones.
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enorm
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 12:35
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On 2013-01-19 20:31, davidmorgan wrote:
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| Enorm (via Andy B) wrote:
designs on the Pictish Symbol Stones relate to the Mysteries of Mithras. |
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Good one! I guess it's open season on Class I Pictish Stone interpretations, then.
I reckon the connected circles represent shields and the Z-rod is a lightning strike, and the whole lot means "get off my land - and this is my sigil", the sigil being the symbol above the Z-rod.
P.S. Here's the Megalithic Portal's Class I Pictish Stones content.
Obviously the nicest Z-rod is this one.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2013-01-19 22:17 ]
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At http://www.pictish-mithraism.com/page47.php Appendix A (section on Z-Rods and Double Discs) I have noted 56 objects of which 29 are indistinct. I have grouped into 18 designs distinguished by variants of “flame” formats. My interpretation (summarised at the beginning of this Topic) is that the Z-Rod is not a rod but two inter-connected arrows representing the torches of Cautes and Cautopates (Mithras’s companions in the Tauroctony). Cautes is the symbol of life, light and day; Cautopates is the symbol of death, darkness and night. One faces east towards the morning star the other west towards the evening star – one’s torch is alight the other extinguishing signifying the beginning and end of the day; they further depict the spring and autumn equinoxes. The connecting part of the “Z” is firstly the day, secondly the months between the equinoxes, thirdly time itself – the start is connected to the finish. The circles or discs are multi-depiction - the Earth in the middle, with the planets then the Celestial Sphere (shown as the cross-section of a dough-ring); the Sun (Sol) and Moon (Luna) and other paired items in harmony or tension; the Sun (Sol) and Mithras (Deus Sol Invictus – the unconquerable Sun God, the creator of the universe) in balance.nullPictish-Mithraism Page 47
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jonm
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 14:28
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| Regarding JONM comment of 20-01-2013 at 14:55 about the Z-Rod and Double Disc appearing like a cut though doughnut, I wondered about this as the centre line symmetry and the artistic “waisting” effect of the curved lines these circles also look like a bisected solid annulus (a cut through dough-ring whereby both exposed parts of the cross sections are the same). |
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Yes, that's what it resembled to me also but the waisting would be very much artistic? It also struck me as being a bit like one of those suck-on grab rails that you can get for bathrooms.
I had a look at your book; Interesting and looks as if it's well put together: Had to skim-read but will look at again.
Is it possible that the same inhabitants of this one area could have handed down one particular philosophy over a time frame of perhaps 4000 years? (terminating with the Picts after which all knowledge was lost).
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 14:58
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| On 2013-01-26 12:35, enorm wrote:
Appendix A (section on Z-Rods and Double Discs) I have noted 56 objects of which 29 are indistinct. I have grouped into 18 designs distinguished by variants of “flame” formats. My interpretation (summarised at the beginning of this Topic) is that the Z-Rod is not a rod but two inter-connected arrows representing the torches of Cautes and Cautopates (Mithras’s companions in the Tauroctony). |
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Nicely presented.
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tiompan
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| Posted 26-01-2013 at 15:33
Hello Enorm , interesting suggestion . It's pity that the subject matter may suffer from guilt by association due to some recent posts but I think the gulf in quality will be apparent to most .
I, just had a quick look at the basic stuff so just some superficial comments .
I would be interested to hear why you dismiss the more usual approaches to Pictish Stones studies e.g. the
Contemporary northern European epigraphy , including roman examples usually consists of personal names , why should the Pictish stone be any different , particularly when one of the rare examples with a readable inscription i.e. the Dupplin Cross does exactly that ?
The association of the stones with burials suggestive of mortuary of a commemorative function ,55% of recorded stones are found in ecclesiastical ,burial or other memorial areas .
The form of the symbols in pairs etc ,see below ,is also suggestive of form of naming on ogham or roman alphabet inscribed crosses from Ireland and Wales where the reference is to an individual in the form of a name and family group .
The most obvious problems for me against the Mithras explanation is that neither Mithras nor the tauroctony (killing of the bull ) , the two most common iconic representations associated with the cult are not found on any of the Pictish stones and Mithraeum those very distinctive cult centres have never been found in Pictland .Whilst the bull does appear on ten stones it is very much alive.
If the Z is two inter connected arrows there is a problem with the depiction .The lenticualr pointed end (often with five florations ) with two opposed inward directed florations at the “tail “ this is more suggestive of one “arrow “ or “spear “ if two were involved we have not only lost two heads and tails but the central diagonal would be representing two shafts and we only see one . The Z rods whilst never quite N 's don't always maintain the same angles as the torches associated with Cautes and Cautopates The theory seems to be centred upon the V rod and crescent and double disc and Z rod , while they are ubiquitous it does leave many of the other all important symbols to a subordinate role and crucially avoids ,as a far as I can see , the the hierarchical paired relationships and use of qualifiers e.g. mirror and mirror and comb both of which seem to be the most important pointers to a possible grammar and understanding .
George
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Runemage
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 11:27
Hi Enorm,
I've looked at the illustrations in your appendices and noticed that some although not all in the v-rod carvings section had three shapes nested in the V.
The number Three and religion do have quite a tie-in and I wondered if you'd noticed that at all and if it could be significant in any way.
Rune
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On 2013-01-26 12:11, enorm wrote:
Perhaps the stones are “multi-purpose”. Whilst I suggest a religious purpose, that does not exclude other uses. In fact religious and astronomical uses would be consistent with the original formulation of Mithraism. The Mysteries of Mithras are indelibly linked to the astronomy and astrology as understood and in use at the time. The earth was considered to be at the centre of the universe with the planets (including, then, the sun and moon) rotating around the earth in one direction and the firmament (Celestial Sphere) rotating in the opposite direction. This is easy to represent in two dimensions as a dot and two concentric circles – as with the Discs on the Pictish Stones.
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enorm
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 11:37
Hi George – in reply to 5 of your key points of 26 January:-
a) I am not so much “dismissing” the “more usual approaches” but more putting forward an alternative. Perhaps the type and purpose of the epigraphy you mention is fundamentally different to that on the Symbol Stones e.g. the stones at or recovered from Hadrian’s Wall are of altar or commemorative function so do not seek to obscure their carvings such as names. The Dupplin Cross is very late Pictish period with a purpose beyond that of the typical Symbol Stones – not least as it carries no Pictish symbols so arguably Class 3 - so not seeking to hide a message; quite the opposite with soldiers, biblical stories etc. The Latin inscription is a conspicuous dedication to “Constantine, son of Fergus”. My proposal is that the symbols are a form of “coding” for Pictish Mithraism but that applies to Class 1 and 2 only.
b) Symbols in pairs is an interesting theory with well-reasoned arguments in several books but I believe the true meaning of the symbols requires all of them to be decoded together – we tend to get to concentrate too much on Vs and Zs. More on this in a further comment.
c) The difficulty with any “burial” commemoration is the assumption of inhumation at the time – were there other methods used then e.g. cremation? More than half the stones are found in later ecclesiastical settings (examples in Appendix C of my web site). Many Stones are in, under or near churches. This suggests some form of continued reverence, acceptance or superstition on the transition from Pictish Mithraism to Christianity by the people living in Pictland at the time. Maybe few surprises here as churches were built over Mithraea in Italy and elsewhere.
d) Ogham is used on 15 stones – most seem to be “add ons” so, I would argue, not associated with the original function of the stones. A good example is the second Newton stone with both Ogham and Cursive carvings of what appear to ne names (MAQQ = Mac).
e) Regarding Mithras and the tauroctony, my premise is that the Symbol Stones are part of a belief set (religion) derived from Mithraism. One prospective cult centre, though, is Burghead but probably dating to an earlier era that the Pictish Stones.
I will separately comment on your last paragraph – Zs etc.
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Runemage
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 12:34
More than half the stones are found in later ecclesiastical settings (examples in Appendix C of my web site). Many Stones are in, under or near churches. This suggests some form of continued reverence, acceptance or superstition on the transition from Pictish Mithraism to Christianity by the people living in Pictland at the time. Maybe few surprises here as churches were built over Mithraea in Italy and elsewhere.
On continued reverence, not sure if you've come across this before, several churches have standing stones hidden in their vaults or on display inside. Some people suggest that crosses etc. on church sites were initially megaliths which were later adapted to promote the religion du jour.
Rune
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 14:41
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On 2013-01-28 12:34, Runemage wrote:
More than half the stones are found in later ecclesiastical settings (examples in Appendix C of my web site). Many Stones are in, under or near churches. This suggests some form of continued reverence, acceptance or superstition on the transition from Pictish Mithraism to Christianity by the people living in Pictland at the time. Maybe few surprises here as churches were built over Mithraea in Italy and elsewhere.
On continued reverence, not sure if you've come across this before, several churches have standing stones hidden in their vaults or on display inside. Some people suggest that crosses etc. on church sites were initially megaliths which were later adapted to promote the religion du jour.
Rune
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Perhaps a look at stecaks of Bosnia may be usefull?
http://www.bosnian-pyramid.org/bosnia-ix/
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 28-01-2013 at 14:54
There are many similarities of carvings with the pictish ones?
http://bpblognews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/myth-of-mediaeval-stecak-has-been.html
cropredy
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