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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries >> Castlerigg, a Barra grave, sunrise &
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Castlerigg, a Barra grave, sunrise & |
AnewMerlinian
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|  Posted 04-12-2012 at 22:29
I am double-posting this from the Stones forum to allow alternative feedback.
For reference please see: Wessex Archaeology's page on the Allasdale Dunes excavation, the Modern Antiquarian's page on Castlerigg, (which includes plans), stonepage's page on the site, (which includes a panorama), megalithic.co.uk's page, and if you have it, Circles of Stone, a book by Max Milligan and Aubrey Burl.
Castlerigg stone circle, in England's Lake District, is beautiful . It is also enigmatic, and here are some things which i think about in connection to it.
I was walking some months ago when i saw the sun setting behind a low hill . Its shape was near-oval, and it occurred to me that this may have been an influence upon the builders of rings ... if they were seeking to reinforce a connection with risings and or settings.
Some photos from the website flickr :
one, two, three
I am particularly interested in the last of these because it shows that the axis of symmetry seems to be a little bit higher than center just as the sun appears ... making the sun look slightly egg-shaped, with the broader end (unexpectedly) up . It seems to me that this could have been noticed by ancient Britons, and thus may have influenced the layout of Castlerigg, (and of Long Meg & Her Daughters)* . I also imagine the atmospheric distortion evident may have influenced the somewhat irregular placement of stones upon their forms.
* { I have posted mathematical models for Long Meg at stonepages, (and a number of other sites, often finding references to a 7:11:13 triangle, the ratio π/3 and (π/3)^2 ) . Professor Alexander Thom has famously proposed geometric bases for sites, including both of these . I do not want to rule some form of mathematic out, and see it as possible . However, as a guiding influence i would give more weight to the shape of the just-off-the-horizon sun . I feel that whatever mathematics they had, they didn't yet have the technology to realize its full power ... for one realizes the power of mathematics when devices designed according to its principles do not only was impossible before, but what was inconceivable before . With math they could predict eclipses if they were good enough . They seem to have had a firm grasp of Latitude, and this may have been math based . But back in that day the sun and moon were high in a way that would be difficult (i think) to fully appreciate now . Thus (i feel) resemblance to them would have, in the cases of oval and 'wide-egg-shaped' rings, (such as these), provided the garment of form, (with its intended magic), upon which mathematics, (to the extent it was known and with its intended magic), could perform tailoring. }
An excavation carried out on the Outer Hebridean Isle of Barra revealed a cist grave (103), bound by stone setting (104), which are shown on the first page of the Wessex report and in its figures and plates . The grave's shape is a flattened oval, similar overall to Castlerigg . Orientation is also similar ~ both have their long axes slightly off a north-south line ~ though reflected, with the grave's long axis bearing somewhat east of north, and Castlerigg's somewhat west . Similarity continues in looking at their flatter eastern sides . Off center to the south from Castlerigg's, a well-known 'low rectangular enclosure' projects at a slight angle into the ring space, of which Aubrey Burl writes, "An excavation in 1882 found nothing except a small pit at the western end with only charcoal mixed with the earth" . In the Barra grave, more or less on center or slightly north, a single low stone projects into the space at a similar angle . I had earlier proposed these represented hearths, but if so that of the ring seems under-initiated . What i now think these could have represented is a resting place for some perishable provision(s) which the dead would consume along their journey, or a like gift to be presented to those in the next life.
Though Castlerigg is some 1500 years older, and stands at a distance from this Western Isles site, i feel that the remote and rugged Barra would be a logical place to find use of what may have been earlier lake-district symbolism, (though Long Meg at the edge of the neighboring Peak District may also attest to its viability) ; quoting from page 2 of the report: "Branigan (2007, 19) states that referring to the period from around 2000BC to about 500BC as the Bronze Age is, in the case of Barra, optimistic if not positively misleading. The totality of bronzework from this period so far discovered in these southern islands is half a small cloak fastener." . However, it might also be reasonable to expect that at such a distance in space and time, following of such a custom may not be universal ~ even within the same burial ground ~ as the excavation report shows.
That a grave should be similar in form to a just-off-the-horizon sun makes intuitive sense within the milieu as i imagine it . And i find it worth noting that the flatter side, (which if it were modeled upon the sun would be higher in the sky), of both grave and ring face eastward, as though they were rising with their dead ; (Long Meg's Daughters has its flatter side to the north, complicating comparison).
This leaves a less-than-airtight explanation for the extra low stone in the grave, and for the box in Castlerigg . So to take things the other way ~ if the grave had been modeled after some abode used by the living, the ring would likely have been too and this speculation about the shape of the rising sun would probably be wrong . But, off-round is neither the strongest nor the most economical shape for a hut, (round is), and i have seen no mention of huts off-round in this way, to this degree . Also, if it represented a permanent domicile for the dead, why would the grave not have had some lasting object upon the extra stone?
Assuming the rising-sun as model hypothesis is valid, there is also the question : If it was this way, why haven't numerous graves of this type been found in the area ? Indeed, the other graves in the cemetery excavated are not nearly as reminiscent of Castlerigg, and i may be overstating the case based upon a coincidental resemblance . However, that possibility seems diminished by the presence of that angled stone, so as above, i imagine that the possibility of a tradition that was not universally followed should be considered.
Once again, i bring up excarnation . If the circle was used for that purpose, or for the funerary rites preceding/following it, it may have been considered the same in the eyes of the locals . Vultures being diurnal creatures of the air, they could have served well within a belief system in which the sun also played a part ; and as described in another post, i believe they felt the vulture's embodiment of the bucranium symbol indicated it was a powerful, honorable though morbid, divine being ~ particularly if theirs was a pastoral society . If so, i imagine these people also paid attention to the direction from which the vultures arrived and to which they departed . I find that touching, and wasn't expecting it : their drawing augury regarding the dead from the paths of the birds...
This post is based upon posts i made as 'Anew' to the Alternative Theories forum of the site stonepages.com
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AnewMerlinian
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| Posted 28-12-2012 at 20:00
I believe the following Himba tribe hut, (Namibia), may have relevance here ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Namibie_Himba_0712a.jpg
Having searched flickr for more photos to establish a basis for comparison, i find a variety of styles of which the one in the above-linked photo is comparatively rare ; and a stand-out, (though maybe not singular), example . I find myself curious about two things :
First is the off-round shape painted in white, (a color of apparent symbolic importance in much of traditional Africa, though this tribe seems to prefer red), on the hut's wall . It seems to be both the shape of the hut's floor-plan, and a fairly good representation of the overall shape of the Barra grave, Castlerigg, and Long Meg's Daughters . Its presence seems to add an element of mysticism, and this is the only hut i've seen it on . Together these factors indicate to me that this particular style of hut may have a special purpose within their culture . One woman, (with a rather guarded expression), stands in the doorway, and another is visible within in the enlarged version . Their presence indicates that this was not a male-only domain ; and i imagine its use and importance might involve pregnancy, childbirth or a rite of passage involving sequestration .
Secondly, there is a ramp of earth leading to the door-opening, one which appears to be at a slight angle to it, recalling but inverting the enclosure within Castlerigg and the extra stone in the Barra grave .
I suggest that these British sites may draw upon a similar tradition passed down through the human diaspora, and intended to serve a similar, (but in some sense inverted), purpose for the dead .
Please see also the other photo of Himba dwellings from the Wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himba_village.jpg
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Runemage
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| Posted 28-12-2012 at 21:32
Hi Anew,
I am double-posting this from the Stones forum to allow alternative feedback.
It's good to see your ideas here once again. The Stones Forum is for traditional archaeology and proveable facts, whereas this one's for discussion of alternative ideas and other non-mainstream topics, so it's best if we host your post here.
At Castlerigg, you may not have seen just from photos, many people have commented that the individual stones in the circle seem to echo the shapes of the mountains behind them - I believe that's the case at part of Macchu Picchu too.
Excarnation - we don't have vultures in the UK and I don't know what the population of eagles would have been in that area during the Neolithic and Bronze age. We do have corvids nowadays although again I don't know about during prehistory, perhaps they were used. At the Tomb of the Eagles in Orkney as Sea Eagle bones were found in the tomb with the human remains, it's been suggested that the Sea Eagle was either a tribal totem or revered for its role in excarnation.
Rune
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AnewMerlinian
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| Posted 11-01-2013 at 22:40
At this point, having found a hut close to the Urkultur with a floor-plan similar to these rings, excarnation seems rather less focal to their discussion . But to continue its consideration as it may apply :
@ RuneMage, no vultures you say, pity ...
However, there may be an able local substitute in the common buzzard ; (Wikipedia's Page), (a linked range map) ; ( i feel prehistoric range may have been broader) .
I find myself particularly interested in the following, (from Wikipedia) :
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To attract a mate (or impress his existing mate) the male performs a ritual aerial display before the beginning of spring. This spectacular display is known as 'the roller coaster'. He will rise high up in the sky, to turn and plummet downward, in a spiral, twisting and turning as he comes down. He then rises immediately upward to repeat the exercise.
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I imagine this may be linked to the spirals carved in the ritual mace from Knowth, (an image from TMA), the Bru na Boinne generally, and the Towie petrosphere . As the article notes, these birds will come to carrion, and the male's spiraling display, and that it occurs in anticipation of the general rebirth of spring, may have had religious significance for these people . Thus a tradition which may have been brought north with the diaspora from areas the vulture frequents could have been adapted to local conditions.
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cropredy
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| Posted 13-01-2013 at 18:26
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On 2013-01-11 22:40, AnewMerlinian wrote:
At this point, having found a hut close to the Urkultur with a floor-plan similar to these rings, excarnation seems rather less focal to their discussion . But to continue its consideration as it may apply :
@ RuneMage, no vultures you say, pity ...
However, there may be an able local substitute in the common buzzard ; (Wikipedia's Page), (a linked range map) ; ( i feel prehistoric range may have been broader) .
I find myself particularly interested in the following, (from Wikipedia) :
Quote:
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To attract a mate (or impress his existing mate) the male performs a ritual aerial display before the beginning of spring. This spectacular display is known as 'the roller coaster'. He will rise high up in the sky, to turn and plummet downward, in a spiral, twisting and turning as he comes down. He then rises immediately upward to repeat the exercise.
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I imagine this may be linked to the spirals carved in the ritual mace from Knowth, (an image from TMA), the Bru na Boinne generally, and the Towie petrosphere . As the article notes, these birds will come to carrion, and the male's spiraling display, and that it occurs in anticipation of the general rebirth of spring, may have had religious significance for these people . Thus a tradition which may have been brought north with the diaspora from areas the vulture frequents could have been adapted to local conditions.
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Anew,
IMHO birds do not merely fly by flapping their wings, as don't bee's and multiple other flying things.
They know of, and can utilise the imploding spiral plasma, and the opposite emmiting spiral plasma.
The imploding is more powerfull than the emmittingby a ratio of 55/34.
I have found this at countless locations.
This has a consequence called gravity.
There is no force called gravity.
The rate of all of this is dinural and varies with the larger yearly occurances.
I assure You with absolute confidence and endless checkings that the stone circles are constructed to locally FIT the geometry , the suns location is all part of this versus the Earths.
The imploding flows imho have been called god, the outflowing mother earth.
And it takes both to enable creation.
I know the geometries better than Thom ever could, and I really admire that mans efforts and abilities, it is not arrogance on My part stating that, I honestly know the geometry to absolute precision, and can demonstrate such to anyone anywhere.
The geometry is totally fixed, it never ever moves, what flows upon it varies amazingly, and is so variable as to be almost indescribable, the complexity is amazing, but a doddle for such as Myself..
I face constant and never ending ridicule, I bet I would recieve no such from the native tribes around this globe?
They are simply still atuned with all of this.
I am as ever in awe of Your efforts to better comprehend all of this.
Kevin
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aknifethatfellfromthesky
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| Posted 13-01-2013 at 19:49
british birds for sky burial; the range of birds found in the neolithic to those found nowadays in britain has remained pretty constant with only a few disappearing and a few others appearing since. all corvids have beaks for ripping; raven, crow, magpie, rook, jackdaw, jay and chough. birds of prey and carrion feeders are numerous, included in this group would be eagles, kites and buzzards (the later, very common). add to these ground animals such as wolf and fox and remains would not stay untouched for long. Dx
edit; as an aside, there is a very similar 'rectangle' in the very similar brats hill (burn moor) circle not that far from castlerigg
[ This message was edited by: aknifethatfellfromthesky on 2013-01-13 19:55 ]
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AnewMerlinian
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| Posted 17-01-2013 at 19:03
Thanks again, Kevin
aknifethatfellfromthesky, thanks for the information on the circle ; (this site's page) . I don't know what to make of that yet, as the plan here included seems idealized.
More thoughts on the subject :
I have found plans for the following flattened rings in Prof. Thom's book Megalithic Sites in Britain :
Rough Tor
Dinnever Hill
Burnmoor E
Cambret Moor
Black Marsh
Bar Brook
Thieves, (henge)
Aviemore
Tursachan Callanish, (a complicated site)
With the (slightly) possible exception of the last, none of these appear to have rectangular settings of stones either within them or immediately nearby . Thus if that of Castlerigg represented an inverted entry ramp, and if the other rings continued to represent ceremonial huts, this aspect seems to have been dropped or shifted to a less fixed medium early on . Such would complicate, but not rule out, the symbol's reappearance as the extra stone in the Barra grave .
It is also noteworthy that the North Uist site Leacach an Tigh Chloiche contains more in the way of rectangular boxes of stones, (4 or 5 by my count), than clear evidence of a ring . This raises the possibility that the rectangular stone setting was either a Hebridean/(Orkney-Man-Shetland) innovation, or one which took root there . The former seems somewhat unlikely, but cannot be ruled out if the time held a sufficiently competent seafaring culture, (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Isles), and if so their meaning is the more obscure . In any case, the way it is used at the Uist site indicates it could at the least be separated from any interpretation as an inverted entry ramp to a ring as symbolic hut .
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rogeralbin
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 03:21
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On 2013-01-17 19:03, AnewMerlinian wrote:
It is also noteworthy that the North Uist site Leacach an Tigh Chloiche contains more in the way of rectangular boxes of stones, (4 or 5 by my count), than clear evidence of a ring . This raises the possibility that the rectangular stone setting was either a Hebridean/(Orkney-Man-Shetland) innovation, or one which took root there . The former seems somewhat unlikely, but cannot be ruled out if the time held a sufficiently competent seafaring culture,
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Anew,
Check out the Orkney Vole, it did not travel there from mainland Europe on it's own. The dates of the earliest bones will give you an insight as to the capabilities of the maritime culture.
rog
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tiompan
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 09:48
Anew , Leacach an Tigh Chloiche is a chambered cairn with 7 orthostats forming the chamber and is not related to a stone circle or similar circular monument .
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 18:22
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On 2013-01-18 09:48, tiompan wrote:
Anew , Leacach an Tigh Chloiche is a chambered cairn with 7 orthostats forming the chamber and is not related to a stone circle or similar circular monument .
George
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http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=824
A mere few trots for shergar?
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 18:32
Tiompan,
Ever considered that near by variant ancient monuments may be symbiotically related???
Like Nelsons column to bucks house?
cropredy
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2013-01-18 18:33 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 19:49
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On 2013-01-18 18:32, cropredy wrote:
Tiompan,
Ever considered that near by variant ancient monuments may be symbiotically related???
Like Nelsons column to bucks house?
cropredy
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2013-01-18 18:33 ]
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Some ancient monuments might be associated far more closely than Buck House and Nelson's column . Why variant and symbiotic and why the question ?
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 21:09
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 19:49, tiompan wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 18:32, cropredy wrote:
Tiompan,
Ever considered that near by variant ancient monuments may be symbiotically related???
Like Nelsons column to bucks house?
cropredy
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2013-01-18 18:33 ]
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Some ancient monuments might be associated far more closely than Buck House and Nelson's column . Why variant and symbiotic and why the question ?
George
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Variant in such as stone circles and so called tombs, or henges and similer.
Because I know they are, and I check and check very carefully, often with no trace of certain parts been there, but I know the geometry and the consequences of why particuler so called tombs were located exactly where they were and why the henge or stone circles were to locally uprate specific flows directly into the chambers, be they single or multiple chambers .
At WKLB silbaby was to plug or cap off the points where certain flows would otherwise naturally earth, instead they were upgraded to go( and are followable as doing)into the side chambers where spiral implosion points are.
It all as ever is simply that which I can follow with ease.
And thus My opinion only.
The main chamber of WKLB is fed from behind and Silbury
hill plugs or caps off the uprated flows that would otherwise have earthed there, they must have had to keep extending the hill as the flows naturally diminished at that time.
The symbiotic interactions are machine like and can be well spread apart, in fact IMHO the whole landscape was festuned with an intricate arrangement as complicated as modern roads.
But to have any comprehension of this requires one to be able to detect what is invisable to our dominant senses, and then to be as determined and obstinate as this little Yorky is to puzzle out something that is bizzare in the extreme , and all the time have to face incredible ridicule and both self doubt and same from nearly all others.
The Norman churches actually uprate the flows into the cathedrals, as well as into each church, and the routes connecting them is more spiral based on huge scale, and thus extremely difficult to show, and with intricate alterations in the flows directions also involved...otherwise I would have drawn some out, there can be litterally hundreds of individual flows involved with each stone circle or church.
It is simple for Me to follow, but difficult to verbalise or draw.
You asked.
cropredy
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cropredy
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 22:29
See if You notice any similarities to how I describe things in this link?????
http://thelamplight.ca/schematicgod/dowsing.htm
cropredy
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tiompan
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 22:42
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 21:09, cropredy wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 19:49, tiompan wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 18:32, cropredy wrote:
Tiompan,
Ever considered that near by variant ancient monuments may be symbiotically related???
Like Nelsons column to bucks house?
cropredy
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2013-01-18 18:33 ]
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Some ancient monuments might be associated far more closely than Buck House and Nelson's column . Why variant and symbiotic and why the question ?
George
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You asked.
cropredy
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You didn't answer
And why the question ?
George
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tiompan
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| Posted 18-01-2013 at 22:50
Typical dowsing stuff , somebody gets a reaction from rods (or hands , pendulum etc ) and believes it is meaningful /energy lines .
George
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cropredy
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| Posted 19-01-2013 at 08:29
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 22:50, tiompan wrote:
Typical dowsing stuff , somebody gets a reaction from rods (or hands , pendulum etc ) and believes it is meaningful /energy lines .
George
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IMHO,
The above is a typical rigid skeptic reply, determined to resist the unseen.
I thought I answered adequately, and quite lengthily.
The link is not TYPICAL dowsing stuff at all, it is encouraging to see someone else closing in , and having the ability I lack to better describe.
The IMHO takes away the offense that Your reply contains.
cropredy
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-01-2013 at 10:40
Quote:
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On 2013-01-19 08:29, cropredy wrote:
Quote:
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On 2013-01-18 22:50, tiompan wrote:
Typical dowsing stuff , somebody gets a reaction from rods (or hands , pendulum etc ) and believes it is meaningful /energy lines .
George
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IMHO,
The above is a typical rigid skeptic reply, determined to resist the unseen.
I thought I answered adequately, and quite lengthily.
The link is not TYPICAL dowsing stuff at all, it is encouraging to see someone else closing in , and having the ability I lack to better describe.
The IMHO takes away the offense that Your reply contains.
cropredy
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You still didn't answer .
"And why the question ?"
You fail to understand that people are not impressed by rods (hands , pendulums ) moving as many have experienced it for themselves .
There could be many reasons to explain this and one very simple one but some prefer to imagine that it is the due to "earth energies " others that they are getting a response from thay are they are concentrating on . There is no evidence for the former and the latter could be easily shown to be true simply by finding stuff ,but we know despite large numbers of claimants that they don't hence the former has become safer ground as it is unfalsifiable .
There is plenty of scope for testing the claims but they never do better than expected by chance .
Simply because rods move is not to convince anyone of anything other than the rods moved . Simply finding something buried in a football field , which is hardly beyond the usual claims is all that would be needed to convince , it hasn't happened , yet .
George
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Runemage
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| Posted 19-01-2013 at 14:08
The IMHO takes away the offense that Your reply contains
That's an interesting point, Kevin, and one that's made me think for better communication all round on the forum.
I'll start a new thread so everyone can chip in.
Rune
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Runemage
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| Posted 19-01-2013 at 15:32
Hi George,
You fail to understand that people are not impressed by rods (hands , pendulums ) moving as many have experienced it for themselves .
Over the last few decades, I've shown a lot of people how to dowse and their first reaction is one of disbelief [this cannot be happening] followed by amazement [but it is happening, I can do something I don't believe in, what the...] followed by curiosity [how does this work, what am I finding etc.] which spurs them on to explore whatever type of dowsing they are interested in.
Simply because rods move is not to convince anyone of anything other than the rods moved .
Possibly from a dispassionate observer's viewpoint, but I've never encountered anyone who was holding a set of rods for the first time and got a reaction, that wasn't blown away and wanted to go and explore all the possibilities connected with it. Not one person I've met who has had a reaction has gone shrug, so what?
Why don't you contact this chap and discuss his findings? You keep saying dowsers don't find anything, yet, here's an archaeologist who also dowses and has a proven record of finding things buried underground.
http://www.britishdowsers.org/whats_on/archaological_dowsing.shtml
"Don Bryan (elected Chair of the BSD Archaeology SIG in September 2011) was introduced to dowsing some 50 years ago when the Warden of Salisbury Youth Hostel demonstrated how he could trace the water pipes and buried cables around the hostel by dowsing. This one event greatly influenced Don and his dowsing interest had started.
Whilst serving with British Telecomm,[sic] Don used his dowsing skills to locate telephone cables deeply buried underground. After taking early retirement Don took a degree in archaeology at Southampton University and on completion was offered a tutor's post, teaching archaeology to mature students. Some of these students became founder members of the Hampshire Archaeological Dowsers (HADS) with Don as their Archaeological Director. From just a few members at its formation, HADS has grown in membership and reputation and now has a membership of 34. HADS is actively engaged in a programme of researching the Roman road system of Wessex and other archaeological sites in the region.
Simply finding something buried in a football field , which is hardly beyond the usual claims is all that would be needed to convince , it hasn't happened , yet .
That's probably because no-one's organised it. You'll have to do that yourself and see 
Rune
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