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Stonehenge-Preselli links talk |
Andy B
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|  Posted 20-09-2012 at 20:19
Cerrig, PM me your address and I'll send you my copy of Brian John's book,(The Bluestones Enigma)
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cerrig
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 20:48
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On 2012-09-20 20:19, Andy B wrote:
Cerrig, PM me your address and I'll send you my copy of Brian John's book,(The Bluestones Enigma)
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That's very generous of you Andy, but if you sell this book through this site I will aquire a copy that way. (you may need your copy to be a referee) 
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 22:09
I always find it hard to find a middle ground between these so called "educated" folk with degrees in who know's what ology when they tread into realms in which they are not "qualified". Geologists seem to be the main offenders into the area of history/archaeology.
I think my message to them would be - just stick with rocks, guys. OK it's not as sexy as the trendy TV archaeology stuff, but I guess you can't all be an Iain Stewart.
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sem
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 23:11
Hi David
I attended a lunchtime talk by Dr Bevins in Cardiff Museum earlier this year, during which he explained the processes involved in matching the chipping from SH to the outcrop at Rhosyfelin. Whilst not being able to comment on the science behind it, I can say he admitted it was pure luck (call it synchronicity, fate etc - my words) that he remembered taking a rock sample from this area which he had never examined. This is what proved to be the "perfect match". Dr B was very open about this when asked by the audience at Brynberian.
Ologies of all forms tend to, like ornothologists and their subjects, flock together - especially when funds are low.
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 23:51
I hear what you're saying, sem. My point is that I can see that geologists can assist in the analysis of archaeological sites, but only in a supporting role, not a leading one.
After all, the geology guys have got some hard science toys to play with, e.g. OSL and probably electron microscopy etc. But I doubt if geomorphologists can have any real say in the matter - way outside their scope (unless maybe they're trying to sell a book about glacial erratics and are prepared to unscientifically skew a Wikipedia page in order to get their [commercial] viewpoint across - a la Graham Hancock).
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2012-09-20 23:55 ]
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 21-09-2012 at 00:31
Re: geomorphology. Perhaps I was over hasty and Lake Agassiz comes under that heading? [But that's another (possibly related?) story].
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2012-09-21 00:41 ]
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Feanor
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 00:48
<--- Confused Stonehenge Guy ...
The stump of Bluestone 32-E (and probably others) at SH is a specific kind of Rhyolite.
The chemically identical Rhyolite is found at the Rhosyfelin quarry - incidentally less than 3 miles from Cair Menyn, another well-known source of the Preselli Bluestones.
Period tools and other human-manufactured evidence is littering this well-used, easily accessible quarry.
The broadly semi-circular cup of this deposit face almost due east, shielded in the west by the ancient geological hill from which it is composed.
A). How did the Irish Sea Glaciation carry only a few of these stones over this bony upthrust and not many more, 100+ miles South East?
B). Why is anyone still entertaining the idea that it did?
The Glaciation Idea was really interesting when it was posed. It made possible sense at the time, and was rightly investigated by respected people.
Found to have virtually no merit with regard to SH, it was set aside and replaced with the research (and findings) we have at present.
Humans delivered the Welsh Bluestones to Wiltshire.
This concludes the argument.
God bless MountainMan and I wish him all the best, but it's time to put this obstinacy to bed.
(According to his blog, he was there that night too. I wish I had been.)
Neil
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Feanor
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 15:52
The broadly semi-circular cup of this deposit face almost due east, shielded in the west by the ancient geological hill from which it is composed.
I obviously overspoke with regard to this western 'geological hill'.
My remaining remarks stand.
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 19:15
At best it is admitted that the glaciation did not reach Salisbury plain , even the proponents of glacial transport have to admit to a least 15 miles of human transport . There does seem to be an anti anthro attitude among some of the earth sciences , a classic first year geology attitude is to "explain away " rock art as natural .Right is some cases but woefully wrong in most .
George
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On 2012-09-22 00:48, Feanor wrote:
<--- Confused Stonehenge Guy ...
The stump of Bluestone 32-E (and probably others) at SH is a specific kind of Rhyolite.
The chemically identical Rhyolite is found at the Rhosyfelin quarry - incidentally less than 3 miles from Cair Menyn, another well-known source of the Preselli Bluestones.
Period tools and other human-manufactured evidence is littering this well-used, easily accessible quarry.
The broadly semi-circular cup of this deposit face almost due east, shielded in the west by the ancient geological hill from which it is composed.
A). How did the Irish Sea Glaciation carry only a few of these stones over this bony upthrust and not many more, 100+ miles South East?
B). Why is anyone still entertaining the idea that it did?
The Glaciation Idea was really interesting when it was posed. It made possible sense at the time, and was rightly investigated by respected people.
Found to have virtually no merit with regard to SH, it was set aside and replaced with the research (and findings) we have at present.
Humans delivered the Welsh Bluestones to Wiltshire.
This concludes the argument.
God bless MountainMan and I wish him all the best, but it's time to put this obstinacy to bed.
(According to his blog, he was there that night too. I wish I had been.)
Neil
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[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2012-09-22 23:13 ]
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sem
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 22:26
Hi Neil
Going back to my (admittedly short) notes on Dr Bevins' talk (27/6/12 Cardiff Museum), the rhyolite stones are 38+40, with a possibility that a buried stone (a picture was shown, a number given but I did not note it) was also rhyolite. Diametrically opposed in the circle are stones 46+48 which are "nearly" rhyolite (dacitic as DrB called them). The rhyolite match for Craig Rhosyfelin comes from a stone chip taken from either the Cursus or SH. (Memo to self - write faster or listen harder). Geologically speaking, these were the bare bones of DrB's talk.
Whether bits of stone near SH prove human transport is up for grabs.
Best wishes
Sem
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Feanor
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 22:59
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On 2012-09-22 22:26, sem wrote:
Hi Neil
Going back to my (admittedly short) notes on Dr Bevins' talk (27/6/12 Cardiff Museum), the rhyolite stones are 38+40, with a possibility that a buried stone (a picture was shown, a number given but I did not note it) was also rhyolite. Diametrically opposed in the circle are stones 46+48 which are "nearly" rhyolite (dacitic as DrB called them). The rhyolite match for Craig Rhosyfelin comes from a stone chip taken from either the Cursus or SH. (Memo to self - write faster or listen harder). Geologically speaking, these were the bare bones of DrB's talk.
Whether bits of stone near SH prove human transport is up for grabs.
Best wishes
Sem
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Hi Sem!
How's your throat?
Yes, the 'buried one' is 32-E. There are also a couple of others in the Circle, as you have noted.
I didn't mention the Cursus as I was unsure of its provenance - though I did know they'd found something.
Just a thought:
There are now at least three sites which can be virtually confirmed to be SH Bluestone sources. A question might be: Why not take them all from a single location?
I think it illustrates the length of time it took to gather and transport them. It must certainly have been several generations.
In the meantime they'd found other sources, perhaps with greater ease of access.
The easiest to access is probably the last one they used.
There is also the nagging theory that some of the BS's at the Henge had already been worked and came from a previously assembled structure, ala Geoffrey of Monmouth. There weren't enough, so they had to go back and get more, which is the reason there's several different types found at the site.
I don't know much about Neolithic Welsh Circles, so perhaps somebody with more info could offer some clarification.
Neil
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-09-2012 at 23:27
SH stones 38 ,40 ,46 &48 are Rhyolitic but not from Pont Saeson /Rhosyfelin . 46 & 48 may be from an area 300 m. NW of Rhosyfelin .
The matches for the Rhosyfelin came from near the Heelstone and the Darvill and Wainwright 2008 excavation .
George
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sem
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| Posted 23-09-2012 at 00:11
George
Were the "matches" taken from bits of stone in the ground or from "The Stones"?
Sem
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tiompan
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| Posted 23-09-2012 at 10:01
Sem,
I'm pretty sure the matches for Rhosyfelin would have been from the Stonehenge "layer " in the Darvill- Wainwright case .The one near the Heelstone possibly from the layer , I don't know for sure .
George
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On 2012-09-23 00:11, sem wrote:
George
Were the "matches" taken from bits of stone in the ground or from "The Stones"?
Sem
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feather
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| Posted 24-09-2012 at 14:48
I dreamed that the stones were moved in winter, tied to a sledge, and dragged down an icy trail. Easier to handle the weights with ropes, and slide it down to Wiltshire. 
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Runemage
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| Posted 24-09-2012 at 16:59
Hi Feather and welcome.
In profile, the terrain from Wales to Wilts is up and down, a lot. Like a small range of large hills and a few mountains.
So while it would be comparatively easy to sled a counterbalanced large lump of stone down an icy path, in your dream, how did the people move the stones up the correspondingly steep uphill icy paths to cross the next ridge? That's what we all want to know 
Rune
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On 2012-09-24 14:48, feather wrote:
I dreamed that the stones were moved in winter, tied to a sledge, and dragged down an icy trail. Easier to handle the weights with ropes, and slide it down to Wiltshire.
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cerrig
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| Posted 24-09-2012 at 17:36
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On 2012-09-20 20:48, cerrig wrote:
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On 2012-09-20 20:19, Andy B wrote:
Cerrig, PM me your address and I'll send you my copy of Brian John's book,(The Bluestones Enigma)
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That's very generous of you Andy, but if you sell this book through this site I will aquire a copy that way. (you may need your copy to be a referee)
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Book arrived today, through Andy's link above, from Amazon(£8.96)  . I look just like this smilie when I read.
Cerrig
[ This message was edited by: cerrig on 2012-09-26 06:33 ]
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cerrig
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| Posted 27-09-2012 at 10:31
Half way through the book. The case for the Defence in "the Establishment V Mountainman" has concluded . Very interesting so far, lots of curious and imaginative theories about, not very complimentary to the Archaeologists though, or Geomorphologists, or Historians, or English Heritage, but Robin Heath got a thumbs up
The Defence will now present. I can't wait to see who wins, the suspense is unbearable.
Cerrig
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PeteG
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| Posted 27-09-2012 at 14:49
ignore the bluestones found on Silbury bit. This is a missprint in the report Brian had at the time.
As it now stands 4 pieces of small bluestone were found on the summit. One by Atkinson in 1970 and 3 by Jim Leary in 2007.
PeteG
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cerrig
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| Posted 27-09-2012 at 18:52
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On 2012-09-27 14:49, PeteG wrote:
ignore the bluestones found on Silbury bit. This is a missprint in the report Brian had at the time.
As it now stands 4 pieces of small bluestone were found on the summit. One by Atkinson in 1970 and 3 by Jim Leary in 2007.
PeteG
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Sounds suspicious, perhaps they were put there fairly recently. Odd little stones and memento's at these places isn't uncommon.
Cerrig
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