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Stonehenge-Preselli links talk |
cerrig
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|  Posted 13-09-2012 at 04:30
http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/9922213.Stonehenge_s_Preseli_link/
Looks interesting. One for Pab 
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Andy B
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 15:49
Thanks Cerrig, do you happen to know which quarry site they are excavating?
Professor Mike Parker Pearson of University College London is leading a collaborative project involving universities from across the UK in looking at this enigma. Their work has brought them back to Preseli in search of the quarries and sites that may be the start of the longest journey for megaliths anywhere in prehistoric Europe.
Following initial investigations in 2011 the team have returned to excavate a quarry site at Brynberian, North Pembrokeshire,
On Tuesday 18th of September at 7pm, at Brynberian Old School, Professor Mike Parker Pearson will be presenting a talk on the results of the project so far. Everyone is welcome to attend and there will be a small charge to cover refreshments.
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ainsloch
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|  Posted 13-09-2012 at 18:24
It would be quite something if they could find solid evidence of quarrying relating to the Stonehenge bluestones. Though Brian John and other glacier theory proponents might not see it like that 
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sem
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:53
This does look interesting.
I went to a luchtime talk in Cardiff Museum earlier this year by Dr Richard Bevins (geology) who said MPP was doing more research in West Wales this year. His words were that MPP was looking into the idea that the Bluestones etc were taken from the area as an already-complete circle, ala Geoffrey of Monmouth.
RB also said that the foreign stones at Stonehenge were of three types, Dolerite (including spotted), Dacite and Rhyolite, of which there were only 2 each of dacite and rhyolite (plus a possible buried stone). He had matched the rhyolite to an outcrop but not the dacite. Pap took me to this outcrop last year, but I can't remember the name - hint, hint!
May well be worth a drive over.
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:57
Rhosyfelin ,at Pont saeson .
George
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On 2012-09-13 21:53, sem wrote:
This does look interesting.
I went to a luchtime talk in Cardiff Museum earlier this year by Dr Richard Bevins (geology) who said MPP was doing more research in West Wales this year. His words were that MPP was looking into the idea that the Bluestones etc were taken from the area as an already-complete circle, ala Geoffrey of Monmouth.
RB also said that the foreign stones at Stonehenge were of three types, Dolerite (including spotted), Dacite and Rhyolite, of which there were only 2 each of dacite and rhyolite (plus a possible buried stone). He had matched the rhyolite to an outcrop but not the dacite. Pap took me to this outcrop last year, but I can't remember the name - hint, hint!
May well be worth a drive over.
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sem
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 00:36
Thanks Tiompan
It was Pont Saeson for the rhyolite.
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 00:44
Good talk here tonight, very interesting. Packed hall too, mind you, they weren't fussy who they let in 
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mafric
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 09:00
Yes they let both of us in
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ainsloch
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 09:27
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On 2012-09-19 00:44, cerrig wrote:
Good talk here tonight, very interesting. Packed hall too, mind you, they weren't fussy who they let in
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C'mon, don't keep us all in suspense... have they found anything of interest yet?
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 09:52
They have found, according to the Geologist on the team, what amounts to as close a match as he's ever seen. This match , of a Rhyolite at Stonehenge, came from a local Neolithic quarry. There are no doubts about it being a genuine quarry, as tools and lots of other evidence have been found there.
It would seem from this that at least one stone found it's way to Stonehenge by human means. This has obvious implication for the glacier theory.
There was much more to the talk, but that was the main theme.
Cerrig
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 12:11
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| On 2012-09-19 09:52, cerrig wrote:
There are no doubts about it being a genuine quarry, as tools and lots of other evidence have been found there.
It would seem from this that at least one stone found it's way to Stonehenge by human means. This has obvious implication for the glacier theory.
Cerrig
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I see that Brian John is still on the attack:
http://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 13:03
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On 2012-09-19 12:11, davidmorgan wrote:
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| On 2012-09-19 09:52, cerrig wrote:
There are no doubts about it being a genuine quarry, as tools and lots of other evidence have been found there.
It would seem from this that at least one stone found it's way to Stonehenge by human means. This has obvious implication for the glacier theory.
Cerrig
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I see that Brian John is still on the attack:
http://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/
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Last night would have been a good opportunity to ask some searching questions, but no one really did, not publicly anyway. I don't know " Mountainman", or even if he was at the meeting, but it would have been even more interesting if he had showed up and felt some collars.
I'm sure if they let Sem and his dad in he could have got past security too! ( or maybe he was busy )
Cerrig
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ainsloch
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 14:21
Interesting stuff, thanks. Most books I have on Stonehenge which are written by archaeologists state that the evidence for glacial movement of bluestones is severely lacking, but it has been a controversial area nontheless.
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Equinox
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 21:39
MPP attended the Prehistoric Soc's Europa Lecture in Reading earlier this year. Much of the meeting was devoted to Richard Bradley, who delivered the key-note lecture "Houses of Commons; Houses of Lords" and who when not declaiming his fascinating talk, was present on the stage throughout the day as a life-size cardboard cut-out
However MPP also delivered a piece - on the bluestones - and showed slides of his excavation of the quarry, from where several now at Stonehenge were obtained. He has solved one question - he found edgewise stone slabs resembling rails, over which the stones were undoubtedly slid on their way down the hillside.
Later, during lunch, he was heard to express the view:-
"i think we may have underestimated them. Atkinson believed that they were barbarians - howling barbarians, no less. He may have been wrong"
Pearson is fascinated by the Stonehenge culture, the people and their technology. If anyone is going to get to the bottom of it, lintels and all (figuratively speaking - i don't mean the Stonehenge Bottom!) he will.
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PAB
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 23:26
Just caught up on this string - wish I had realised this session was on, but we've been pottering around Anglesey for nearly 2 weeks now!
Connection too slow to follow up all the links in the string, but there was 1 comment I felt I wanted to highlight:
"There are no doubts about it being a genuine quarry, as tools and lots of other evidence have been found there.
It would seem from this that at least one stone found it's way to Stonehenge by human means. This has obvious implication for the glacier theory. "
There may have been more about this at the meeting - but I don't see why the fact of locals in Presellis quarrying stones means that 'at least one found its way to Stonehenge by human means'?
The ones showing quarry marks in Presellis clearly didn't make it to Stonehenge. Those that did get there can still have made it courtesy of glaciation - those left behind by the ice were then worked on in the quarry. Nothing in what has been reported says that ice wasn't a factor.
If only I could remember how to spell the error of logic that is operating here - Non sequitur is what comes to mind, but it was sooo long ago!
Probably just as well I wasn't there - I might have been tempted to ask precisely which section of B John's 'Bluestone Enigma' book the speakers disagreed with - and how many had actually read it properly!
Back to the mainland soon - hoping to find out more about this fascinating session..thanks for having flagged it up cerrig.
pab
(currently camped just along from St Pabo's church....feel very much at home here!)
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Andy B
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 23:32
I've put your little report on the site page to go in the news - thanks Cerrig.
Brian 'Mountainman's blog is worth a read even if you are sceptical of the scepticism - he says he had promised to be on his best behaviour last night and has had long private discussions with the various researchers so he didn't want to disrupt the meeting.
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sem
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 10:52
Andy I've set out a brief summary of the event below. Apologies for the delay but I left my notebook in the car which was subsequently hijacked by my wife. Any errors are due to my memory and the lighting in the hall, which made it impossible to take complete notes.
As Cerrig said the "Old School" was jam-packed, with standing room only when I arrived - I counted over a hundred people! It started with Prof Colin Richards giving a resume of both the 2011 and 2012 digs at Garn Turne (link below).
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=4345
Excavating the two boulders in the forecourt of what was presumed to be the fallen capstone of the dolmen, has revealed that these were also capstones. Whether these three dolmens were in use simultaneously or at different periods is at present uncertain and the team are awaiting RC-dating results to help clarify the matter.
MPP then spoke on the excavation at Craig Rhosyfelin (Pont Saeson). Undertaken by Dr Richard Bevins, this had previously involved matching rhyolite chippings found at (and here I am unsure) either The Cursus or Stonehenge itself with the rock outcrop. During the dig the team found what they describe as clear evidence for ancient quarrying at the site. MPP is also working on an idea that the Bluestones originally formed a circle in this region that was moved to Stonehenge lock, stock and barrel. He thinks that the nearby hill-fort of Castell Mawr, which has previously been suggested to be a reused henge, may provide an answer. Initial excavations have revealed flint and quartz chippings here but more investigation will be required to show a Neolithic origin for the site. If MPP is correct, this would go a long way towards validating Geoffrey of Monmouth's "fantasy".
After the talk, both speakers and Dr Bevins answered questions from the audience. As Cerrig said, none of these were particularly probing, but I am certain the results the team have obtained will provide the basis for many more questions.
All in all, a marvellous eveing and well worth the 2hr drive home - though I am not sure the staff at dad's care home appreciated being disturbed so late.
Sem
All in all a marvellous evening
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cerrig
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 11:10
Pab, the geologist on MPP's team stated that there was the best match of stone samples he had ever seen. A Rhyolite stone at Stonehenge came from that quarry, and from a particular layer in that quarry. That was the conclusion .
I'm not a geologist, so I can't really comment any further than that, just repeating what was very clearly said at the meeting.
I shouldn't think this will settle anything,not yet, but it does seem to me to tip the balance quite significantly towards human involvement, but I am still looking at it with an open mind.
I haven't read Moutainman's book, so I don't know what the counter evidence is, again, can't really comment. Maybe you could give a summary here. It would help a great deal with any debate on this.
Cerrig
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cerrig
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 11:21
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On 2012-09-19 23:32, Andy B wrote:
I've put your little report on the site page to go in the news - thanks Cerrig.
Brian 'Mountainman's blog is worth a read even if you are sceptical of the scepticism - he says he had promised to be on his best behaviour last night and has had long private discussions with the various researchers so he didn't want to disrupt the meeting.
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I'm not sceptical of his theory, just ignorant of the evidence, as I haven't read his book. I would be interested to know what he made of the geologist's (can't remember his name, sorry) evidence of the Rhyolite match and how that fit's into a glacial scenario.
It's good that there is an understanding between the different camps. Better than mud slinging.
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ainsloch
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| Posted 20-09-2012 at 12:47
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On 2012-09-19 23:32, Andy B wrote:
Brian 'Mountainman's blog is worth a read even if you are sceptical of the scepticism |
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I agree, it is pretty informative and current into the bargain.
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