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megalith6
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|  Posted 13-09-2012 at 02:34
George wrote: "There is no symbolic alignment at Newgrange it is real and it is on the solstice".
George, you are it seems confusing what I stated about the *precise* alignment on the winter solstice sunrise at Newgrange and the *symbolic* cruciform which is the ground plan at Newgrange. The ground plan appears to me to be in fact a solar cross - a classic 'Celtic Cross', splendid anachronism there, but nevertheless.
http://www.photoeverywhere.co.uk/britain/ukwild/cross4801.jpg
http://www.knowth.com/newgrange/mound-plan-605.gif
For Stone 'F' please consult Terence Meaden's 'Secrets of the Avebury Stones', 1999.
Best thanks,
Ric
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 08:24
Sem ,I'm a keen organic gardener of many years standing and have looked at the usual stuff like biodynamics which I believe to be mainly ju-ju but there is a lingering suspicion that harvesting at certain times ,possibly during a full moon etc may have some benefits . I am unaware of any tests to see if there are any differences in nutrient uptake at these times .Recent tests have shown that organic methods do not produce greater nutritional values of some minerals and vitamins , if so that's fine , taste is subjective but the point that seems to get missed is that organic means avoiding pesticides and it is not so much a case of being better nutrionally it's avoiding the poisons . Sorry ,deviating . The main interest in the moon would surely be related the tides and how this impacted on travel and foraging activities similarly the phase would also impact on travel , a full moon in winter snow is nearly as good as daylight and travelling during a dark moon is slow and potentially bone breaking .
George
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On 2012-09-13 02:02, sem wrote:
Following Tiompan's quote -
"Farmers do not need to build monuments to know when to reap and sow , if they were that incapable and needed some external help then a few sticks would do the job ."
Over the last year I have met a few people who have told me they think that the phase of the moon is important in gardening. One example was a lady who had visited a "Medieval Garden" and had been told this by the guide. Another was from a bloke in a pub in Cardigan who said that Dai grew the best whatever-it-was in Wales because he used the moon, and he was buggered if he could figure out Dai's way of doing it.
Maybe there is an optimal time for sowing, planting etc in relation to certain related lunar and solar phases - or maybe our ancestors were trying to work this out scientifically!
Not being a gardener myself, I'm even more buggered if I can figure it out!
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[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2012-09-13 08:44 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 08:41
Ric , As I mentioned the ground plan is a typical architectural feature of passage /hall with rooms . The origin of the celtic cross is obviously based on an event three millenia after the building of the monument and celts themselves were yet to appear in Ireland .The solar cross of pagans is not the same as the celtic cross . Wouldn't it be easier to describe the "arrangement " of Stone F ?
George
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On 2012-09-13 02:34, megalith6 wrote:
George wrote: "There is no symbolic alignment at Newgrange it is real and it is on the solstice".
George, you are it seems confusing what I stated about the *precise* alignment on the winter solstice sunrise at Newgrange and the *symbolic* cruciform which is the ground plan at Newgrange. The ground plan appears to me to be in fact a solar cross - a classic 'Celtic Cross', splendid anachronism there, but nevertheless.
http://www.photoeverywhere.co.uk/britain/ukwild/cross4801.jpg
http://www.knowth.com/newgrange/mound-plan-605.gif
For Stone 'F' please consult Terence Meaden's 'Secrets of the Avebury Stones', 1999.
Best thanks,
Ric
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 09:00
Cerrig , 3000 BC seems a wee bit early for a standing stone but at least is is probably closer than todays date . In that case the equinox sun would not be 104 deg .
Solstices at Beijing will be about 12 degrees less extreme than those at latitude 51 deg .
George
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On 2012-09-13 01:25, cerrig wrote:
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On 2012-09-12 10:27, tiompan wrote:
Cerrig , I make the solstice 54 degrees and the equinox 98.5 . The angle of slope pointing to the pole star will always be the same as the latitude e.g. the slope required to point to the pole star at Beijing which is situated at 39.5 degrees N will be the same , 39.5 degrees .
George
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George, the solstice today is between 53 and 54 deg's, but not 5000 years ago. The Equinox is, as I said, 104 deg's , according to my method of measurement, which I did on site, likewise the solstice measurements.
You are of course correct about the angle of slope and the latitude. I was simply including it for interest , not implication. I wonder what the solstice sunrise bearing is from Beijing though ?
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Runemage
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 13:21
Re the organic gardening, spot on George, I don't give a hoot what people say about its nutritional difference but the lack of poisons is one reason I buy it wherever possible. - and when it comes to meat there has to be shedloads of nutritional difference between a UK organically reared beastie and a hormone and antibiotic-filled who knows how it's been treated or what it's been fed on from some obscure part of the EU or beyond.
In the States, the Old Farmer's Almanac was extensively used for crop planting according to moonphases. Nowadays of course, it's online. This link should show why Dai's produce was one step ahead of his rivals' Sem
http://www.almanac.com/content/full-corn-moon-septembers-moon-guide
The hard copy with look-inside http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Old-Farmers-Almanac-2013/dp/1571985735
I'm sure there's a UK version but can't find one, maybe it just exists now in lore passed down from father to son over countless generations. The moon phases with planting and gathering times are mentioned in a lot of modern witchy gardening and herb books.
Rune
[ This message was edited by: Runemage on 2012-09-13 13:24 ]
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jonm
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 16:47
George, you are it seems confusing what I stated about the *precise* alignment on the winter solstice sunrise at Newgrange and the *symbolic* cruciform which is the ground plan at Newgrange. The ground plan appears to me to be in fact a solar cross - a classic 'Celtic Cross', splendid anachronism there, but nevertheless.
How do you know that the cruciform is symbolic?
This implies that it symbolises something else and therefore rules out a utilitarian purpose. Unless you know the full extent of the purpose that Newgrange served, I can not see how it is possible to dismiss other possible construction intents which do not have a symbolic root.
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megalith6
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 20:31
George said: "The origin of the celtic cross is obviously based on an event three millenia after the building of the monument and celts themselves were yet to appear in Ireland".
Ric Replies: I do sometimes wonder if anyone reads what is written these days - I stated clearly that the Celtic Cross in the context of Newgrange was a "splendid anachronism". No, the Celtic Cross is in all probabilty much older than Christianity, there are symbolic solar crosses - and in the form of wheels - in the rock art of Sweden for example.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/inoneear/4711613075/in/set-72157624297311466
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51035534522@N01/4712253762
3000 year old rock carvings at Himmelstalund
The cross is an ancient symbolical figure, Avebury Henge itself has this form with its probable symbolic four causeway entrances almost certainly referencing the four cardinal directions symbolically, not actually. But the Avebury builders were more than capable of formulating *precise* solar alignments when they wanted to.
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Runemage
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:00
there are symbolic solar crosses - and in the form of wheels - in the rock art of Sweden for example
Interesting shape.
Any ideas why they have 5 arms with 2 so close together, as opposed to the 4 of an ordinary Medicine wheel?
Rune
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megalith6
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:03
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On 2012-09-13 16:47, jonm wrote: How do you know that the cruciform is symbolic? |
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Please see my previous reply posted 13-09-2012 at 20:31
As for the symbolism of the cruciform, as above, this figure is formed from a cross. The cross can be seen as forming the spokes of a wheel, in this case a solar wheel - the sun - the sun that Newgrange is aligned upon in fact.
Here's a symbolic solar cross from the Baltic.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Utj_NC20lfY/Swc0I-LtgoI/AAAAAAAAAjA/IeuGnMht7Ho/s400/Saul%C4%97.jpg
It is entitled "Sun. From: Lithuanian folk art" courtesy of Google Translate.
Ric
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megalith6
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:07
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On 2012-09-13 21:00, Runemage wrote:
there are symbolic solar crosses - and in the form of wheels - in the rock art of Sweden for example
Interesting shape.
Any ideas why they have 5 arms with 2 so close together, as opposed to the 4 of an ordinary Medicine wheel?
Rune
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Not really, as long as something is clearly identifiable as a symbol for the culture which was responsible for making it, that would suffice I should think?
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:17
The groundplan of Newgrange hardly constitutes being called a cross and doesn't compare with genuine crosses .
The fact that the builders of Avebury were perfectly capable of aligning the entrances of the monument with the cardinal points or solstices and avoided doing so is hardly evidence for any kind of solar or cardinal symbolism . It seems as if an orientation coincides with an astro event that is ok but if it doesn't it is then symbolic is too much cake .Why simply not accept that not every building has an intentional solar alignment and a few do , some even have alignmenst on the moon are they also solar symbols beacsue they are not aligned on the sun .? No word on the Stone F arrangement ?
George
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jonm
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:43
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| The groundplan of Newgrange hardly constitutes being called a cross and doesn't compare with genuine crosses . |
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It's got a bit of a crossy-like shape though? So it is something which is very suited to circular arguments based on preconception.
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Runemage
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 23:09
There are a few cruciform shaped chambers inside passage mounds, Maeshowe has the passage and 3 chambers as does Newgrange, Knowth, Fourknocks, CarnG at Carrowkeel and probably several others I'm too busy at the moment to go and find. Listoghil is in my mind but without checking, I'm not sure.
See here 'Why were they built' for some more
http://www.carrowkeel.com/files/who.html
Rune
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cerrig
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 01:20
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=24942
This stone setting is in the shape of a cross, with arms of 12 feet and 9 1/2 feet. The photo's don't show this too well, but it's there. Curiously, it's the same size as Maen Llia?
Cerrig
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megalith6
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 03:07
George asked about the moon. Many recumbent stone circles in northern Britain appear to be oriented to extreme settings or risings of the moon. This is entirely to be anticipated if other monuments are aligned on the sun. I imagine (and I know) that our remote megalithic forebears observed more than the sun alone in the heavens.
Avebury's quadrants are probably symbolic references to the cardinal directions, just like Plains Indians honoured the four directions without actually consulting a compass before doing so, they were honouring the four symbolic directions.
There are other cultures out there that we can learn from. It is important to look at other cultures, to learn from other cultures besides our own.
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megalith6
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 03:17
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On 2012-09-13 21:43, jonm wrote:
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| The groundplan of Newgrange hardly constitutes being called a cross and doesn't compare with genuine crosses . |
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It's got a bit of a crossy-like shape though? So it is something which is very suited to circular arguments based on preconception.
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omg, when is a cross a cross, and when is it not? 
Here's some cardinal symbolism, the rhomboid in the centre represents the sun and the four arms, sun rays and / or symbolic cardinal directions. The design was taken from an artifact belonging to a hunter-gatherer culture which means their world-view was probably a lot closer to the immediate ancestors of the stone circle builders than is our own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beivve_Sun_symbol.png
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jonm
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 07:41
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| There are a few cruciform shaped chambers inside passage mounds, Maeshowe has the passage and 3 chambers as does Newgrange, Knowth, Fourknocks, CarnG at Carrowkeel and probably several others I'm too busy at the moment to go and find. Listoghil is in my mind but without checking, I'm not sure. |
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I'm with you on the basic concept Rune, it's just the symbolism that the carrowkeel website also implies: This looks like a circular argument to me.
For example, some observatories have the same type of dome as of St Paul's Cathedral. But symbolism is not the primary reason for constructing a dome: The dome is an economic method of achieving an aim.
So I think the implication of symbolism is a circular argument. My Honda looks vaguely like a Maserati Granturismo: It has wheels, bonnet, a curved shape and so on, but it's not symbolic of a Granturismo unless I chose it to be. So I think the carrowkeel argument, that it is symbolic, is only symbolic in their minds.
Hold the presses. Forget all I just said: I've just discovered that my car is symbolic of a Maserati Granturismo!
 
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tiompan
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 08:34
The problem isn't whether a man made shape is best described as cruciform but whether the intention was symbolic . In the case of passage graves or long barrows with chambers the architectural restraints and conventions are far more likely to be the cause than any symbolism . In those cases where the basic pattern of passage with adjoining chambers does not create a cross did they somehow get it wrong e.g. WKLB ,Stoney Littleton .
There is a lot of prehistoric art in the Loughcrew/Boyne complexes ,with some of the radiate circular and semi circular radiate signs arguably solar symbols ( rare in the Boyne ) , these are more like genuine symbols .If the almost cruciate shape of the Newgrange passage and chambers was symbolic where is that symbol among those thousands of motifs ?
George
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On 2012-09-14 03:17, megalith6 wrote:
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On 2012-09-13 21:43, jonm wrote:
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| The groundplan of Newgrange hardly constitutes being called a cross and doesn't compare with genuine crosses . |
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It's got a bit of a crossy-like shape though? So it is something which is very suited to circular arguments based on preconception.
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omg, when is a cross a cross, and when is it not?
Here's some cardinal symbolism, the rhomboid in the centre represents the sun and the four arms, sun rays and / or symbolic cardinal directions. The design was taken from an artifact belonging to a hunter-gatherer culture which means their world-view was probably a lot closer to the immediate ancestors of the stone circle builders than is our own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beivve_Sun_symbol.png
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tiompan
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 08:54
I didn't ask about the moon . I was asking why any alignment that wasn't on a solar event is then considered being "symbolic " of a solar alignment and how you manage to get solar symbolism from something that is clearly lunar . Some RSC 's are aligned on standstill , the majority are not , some are aligned close to the solstice but what they are generally aligned to is the low summer moon appearing to skim over the recumbent . Some monuments are aligned on the solstices and equinoxes , some are aligned on lunar events many are not aligned on either even allowing for imprecision . Ronald Hutton said "the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to ... the cardinal points of the sun" was simply correct .
George
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On 2012-09-14 03:07, megalith6 wrote:
George asked about the moon. Many recumbent stone circles in northern Britain appear to be oriented to extreme settings or risings of the moon. This is entirely to be anticipated if other monuments are aligned on the sun. I imagine (and I know) that our remote megalithic forebears observed more than the sun alone in the heavens.
Avebury's quadrants are probably symbolic references to the cardinal directions, just like Plains Indians honoured the four directions without actually consulting a compass before doing so, they were honouring the four symbolic directions.
There are other cultures out there that we can learn from. It is important to look at other cultures, to learn from other cultures besides our own.
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megalith6
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| Posted 19-09-2012 at 13:31
[duplicate]
[ This message was edited by: megalith6 on 2012-09-19 13:36 ]
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