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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Sacred Sites and Megalithic Mysteries >> Solar alignments?
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Solar alignments? |
tiompan
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|  Posted 31-12-2012 at 09:51
Sorry Chimera , I was twittering , yes the the GT is not 53-54 but the recumbent 55-56 .
George
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jonm
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 11:43
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| if solstice sunset is not the one, there has to be 2 days either side when sun fits box. Maybe a week or so? If the man is a priest, chief or even a sacrifice, before solstice, his ritual may give (or receive) power from the sun to return to summer. The week may be needed to give time to stop the sun's sinking further. |
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Could be Chimera, interesting idea. Kinda spooky that they did all this alignment stuff for the suggested main event but in the case of Stonehenge didn't actually bother to align it so that they could tell when the main event would occur.
Makes it tricky to arrange a get-together for the solstice evening, though some people argue that the heelstone was used for the same purpose instead (though there is a small flaw in this argument).
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| Or if the solstice sets at the base of GT the man up high is lit by the light above the sunset. A ground box would be simpler to align with sunset, so the height of GT may be elevate the person literally. |
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Could be. So which day would you be arguing for if not solstice? (I haven't understood what it is that you're suggesting to tell the truth)
Running with the box idea, at Newgrange they don't exactly make a big play on the fact that the solstice box light would look almost identical on days other than solstice. I guess the idea of having a lottery to get in on the solstice wouldn't have quite the same allure if they did. Mind you, at Newgrange there's lots of stuff which isn't even mentioned in any of the books.
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tiompan
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 12:14
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On 2012-12-31 11:43, jonm wrote:
Running with the box idea, at Newgrange they don't exactly make a big play on the fact that the solstice box light would look almost identical on days other than solstice. I guess the idea of having a lottery to get in on the solstice wouldn't have quite the same allure if they did. Mind you, at Newgrange there's lots of stuff which isn't even mentioned in any of the books.
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Jon, the important points about the light box is that the passage was blocked and effectively inaccessible but the box only had a couple of moveable quartz rocks blocking the light . It is sited to allow light into the chamber and the calculation is that if it was 20 cm higher or lower or the passage a few metres shorter or longer the light would not enter the chamber .
George
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jonm
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 13:43
Quote:
| It is sited to allow light into the chamber and the calculation is that if it was 20 cm higher or lower or the passage a few metres shorter or longer the light would not enter the chamber . |
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Sure George. It's easy to generate a 3-D arrangement showing how it all works. I can't remember the exact figures now, but apart from the length of the passage being shorter, that sounds about right.
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Runemage
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 14:12
I'm writing the review for a book by Gordon R Freeman which has a *lot* of content pertinent to this thread and contains the author's photographs of alignments recorded over many years at Stonehenge, some new insights into Newgrange and a very new perspective on the Prescellis from whence the Bluestones came.
The book I've read is "Hidden Stonehenge" and it appears to enlarge and add to several findings in his prior book 'Canada's Stonehenge'. Here's a taster of CS which is also in HS.
http://canadastonehenge.com/excerpt/
"Anyone who makes rise and set observations from the same spot over several years, as Skywatchers had to do in ancient times and still do, finds that the positions of the first and last flashes are the most reproducible, most nearly the same on the same date year after year. My main contribution to archaeoastronomy in the North Temperate Zone has been to rediscover the ancient technique of observation, which has provided the first dependable rise and set data during recent centuries along alignments marked by fixed back and front sights."
He also answers the questions of demonstrable alignments at Stonehenge with photos along the lines of "If you stand here because that's what the layout tells you to do, then look there you will see..." and also gives a very reasonable explanation of the lintel circle being deliberately incomplete and much more.
I want to get the review online before I say anything else about it but I do think his work has some definitive answers to points raised here. Don't be put off by the title, there's not a new agey word in it.
Rune
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jonm
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 15:08
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| I want to get the review online before I say anything else about it but I do think his work has some definitive answers to points raised here. Don't be put off by the title, there's not a new agey word in it. |
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Thanks Rune. Sounds interesting and look forward to the review. Glad I didn't read it in some ways because, from the extracts, I would have had difficulty in not plagiarising him if I had not had to do my version from scratch.
Would it be possible to write a one paragraph (three sentence) summary of what he thinks Newgrange is for? (Not asking you to write it, just asking if the ideas are so well defined and the evidence so convincing that it would be possible to summarise it all in just one paragraph)
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Runemage
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 15:17
Winter Solstice sunrise definition, in order to know when it was basically.
Also there's something about the position of the sun in the roofbox with a diagram, will have to look that up, be back in around an hour-ish.
Rune
edited, sunRISE is Newgrange, aarrgghh
[ This message was edited by: Runemage on 2012-12-31 17:02 ]
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Feanor
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 15:52
Hi Jon, George, Chimera & Runemage,
Happy New Year!
With an intact Stonehenge, stand in the center of the Avenue at about the HeelStone and face the Aperture. In the rear, the Great Trilithon stands above the Lintels at the front of the Circle.
Between the bottom of its Lintel and the top of the Lintels at the aperture will appear an open rectangular box.
Now Chimera, the Solstice Sun sets at the base between 55 & 56, and is seen best from ground level. (This occurs for 3 days, with the middle day being the actual Winter Solstice.)
In addition, this is the farthest south the Sun travels, so could never be seen that high in the 'box'.
But the Moon sets a bit farther south at its Low Standstill, and can be observed to pass behind the GT 'box'. As we know, the Moon appears larger nearer the horizon, so the view of it from the HeelStone would be quite impressive.
Jon, the excavation at the Elbow took place on the North side of the curve and did not cut straight across, so we'll have to wait and see what might be found in future.
But I'm still rooting for the Ice Striations!
Best,
Neil
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tiompan
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 16:13
Rune , the builders knew when and where the event took place , that was the easy bit . Fitting the roof box into the monument accuratekly enough to allow it do the job was the the more difficult bit .
George
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On 2012-12-31 15:17, Runemage wrote:
Winter Solstice sunrise definition, in order to know when it was basically.
Also there's something about the position of the sun in the roofbox with a diagram, will have to look that up, be back in around an hour-ish.
Rune
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my gaffe edited here too, Newgrange is for Winter Solstice sunRISE
[ This message was edited by: Runemage on 2012-12-31 17:05 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 16:24
Happy New Year Neil , Dunno if you have come across the John North stuff on some possibiities of sight lines etc in relation to the Trilithons as viewed from the c the heel stone ,interesting but there are so many variables and of course the Freemans (majorville etc ) did a couple from close to the Altar stone with one involving a "notch " on stone 58 .
George
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jonm
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 17:22
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| Winter Solstice sunrise definition, in order to know when it was basically. |
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It could be done: The back stone of the chamber is suited to it. From memory, there would be less than an inch differential between solstice and the day before or after. But the theory does beg the question, if knowing the date was so important, why they didn't mark the position on the back wall: The shadow descends at a shallow angle and, with that particular box shape, it would be difficult to differentiate between one day and the next, especially if there was the slightest bit of cloud.
Does his book give the impression that he's been inside it to measure up and answer the questions before they are asked? Might sound a pessimistic question but some ideas are put forward just waiting for critics to tell the author what is wrong. Has he gone through all the technical considerations in the book or is it a bit vague?
I suppose I should wait for the review really.
Edit.. Arrgh.. I did it too (Dowth is so easy to interchange)
[ This message was edited by: jonm on 2012-12-31 17:35 ]
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jonm
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 17:23
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| Jon, the excavation at the Elbow took place on the North side of the curve and did not cut straight across, so we'll have to wait and see what might be found in future.
But I'm still rooting for the Ice Striations! |
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Could be. Either would give you a 'best path' to avoid getting your feet wet. Be interesting to see what they come up with!
Have a happy new year everyone!
Jon
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Runemage
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 17:47
Happy New Year to everyone, all of our contributors and our readers.
He suggests it was to mark the time of year when the Sun was renewed, also suggesting a little etymology for the name New Grange to be originally in Gailge Nua Ghrian, literally New Sun.
He performed an interesting experiment there. In 1998, He noticed that the sky could not be seen down the passage from a standing position in the inner chamber. He put his head sideways on the floor at the base of the stone basin to see the tree-dotted horizon in the roofbox.
In 2006, he returned and was refused permission to photograph what he'd seen. He found someone to take him to that spot and calculated 5,000 years ago, the effects of sunrise in the passageway and end chamber and also which parts of the sun's sphere were visible in the roofbox from the floor of the chamber on which days. If I've interpreted his diagram on p188 correctly, it seems to have been a visual 'fact' that people could stand in the chamber and watch in the roofbox as the rising sun slows down, stops and then returns the way it came over a period from 19 Dec to 5 Jan.
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Would it be possible to write a one paragraph (three sentence) summary of what he thinks Newgrange is for? (Not asking you to write it, just asking if the ideas are so well defined and the evidence so convincing that it would be possible to summarise it all in just one paragraph)
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tiompan
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 18:44
Happy New Year Rune , sorry to jump in even before you have had a chance to deliver the review , but .
The etymology is very suspect . if the original term was new sun then the elements would be reversed e.g. Ghrian nua but the name New grange is clearly English and related to the lands owned by the monks of Mellifont Abbey . Prior to that it had an Irish name and is recorded in Irish literature as Brug oengusa , Brug mic an og etc or simply An Brug .
The experiment is just reversing the route of the light , the passage is ascending , hence the need for the roof box to be higher at the entrance .
Why suppose that anybody was watching the light when there was a blocking stone to keep punters out but a roof box to allow light ? The period of about a week either side of the solstice has been known since at least the Jon Patrick
survey in 1974 .
George
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On 2012-12-31 17:47, Runemage wrote:
Happy New Year to everyone, all of our contributors and our readers.
He suggests it was to mark the time of year when the Sun was renewed, also suggesting a little etymology for the name New Grange to be originally in Gailge Nua Ghrian, literally New Sun.
He performed an interesting experiment there. In 1998, He noticed that the sky could not be seen down the passage from a standing position in the inner chamber. He put his head sideways on the floor at the base of the stone basin to see the tree-dotted horizon in the roofbox.
In 2006, he returned and was refused permission to photograph what he'd seen. He found someone to take him to that spot and calculated 5,000 years ago, the effects of sunrise in the passageway and end chamber and also which parts of the sun's sphere were visible in the roofbox from the floor of the chamber on which days. If I've interpreted his diagram on p188 correctly, it seems to have been a visual 'fact' that people could stand in the chamber and watch in the roofbox as the rising sun slows down, stops and then returns the way it came over a period from 19 Dec to 5 Jan.
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Would it be possible to write a one paragraph (three sentence) summary of what he thinks Newgrange is for? (Not asking you to write it, just asking if the ideas are so well defined and the evidence so convincing that it would be possible to summarise it all in just one paragraph)
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Runemage
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 20:14
Hi George, I think his etymology was only a guess at what it could have derived from. Don't be put off by that, his other research into all of the sites is sound.
Once the review is written and published, I'll be able to chip in with more of his findings where relevant.
Rune
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Feanor
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 21:07
Here's a little something that shows what I'm talking about.
__________________
__________________
(The Winter Solstice Sunset is shown because it looks cool.)
George - I am broadly familiar with some of the ideas and sources you mention, and Angie Lake has a few interesting photos of this 'phenomenon' as well.
My feeling has always been: If you have to laboriously guess with smoke and mirrors about some obscure 'alignment' - something not clearly or obviously observable - then it may not be what was intended.
Rocks get chipped & tipped, time passes, etc, etc ... (Interesting coincidences actually Do happen.)
People like to assign sight-lines or other geometry to circles, squares and rectangles. It's our penchant for seeing Form. These Forms invite paper, pencil, compasses and rulers. We have the advantage of an overhead blueprint so we merrily draw all sorts of lines, because our brain's 3 most recognized shapes are involved.
The people who built it couldn't see it from above, so they kept it's complexity simple (if that makes any sense).
There's very few specific, easy-to-see sight-lines or alignments at Stonehenge, because Less is More.
I'm sorry I cannot contribute to the discussions of Newgrange or other famous aligned sites. I am woefully uninformed about these fascinating places.
Best,
Neil
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chimera
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 21:20
"the Solstice Sun sets at the base between 55 & 56, and is seen best from ground level. (This occurs for 3 days, with the middle day being the actual Winter Solstice.)
In addition, this is the farthest south the Sun travels, so could never be seen that high in the 'box'."
Maybe i've lived in OZ too long but as sun's sloping track moves south or back north its path has to cut across the high GT. ?
Before the horseshoe was built maybe the dead-set solstice was the main idea. Then when a priesthood and traditions were established they needed a bit longer ritual to employ themselves or whatever. The GT has to mean something specific and it can't point to anything except the sunset at its base on the Avenue line.
(just saw the neat pic. Should the GT be this side of the ring, giving a larger box in view?)
[ This message was edited by: chimera on 2012-12-31 21:31 ]
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Feanor
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| Posted 31-12-2012 at 23:56
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On 2012-12-31 21:20, chimera wrote:
"the Solstice Sun sets at the base between 55 & 56, and is seen best from ground level. (This occurs for 3 days, with the middle day being the actual Winter Solstice.)
In addition, this is the farthest south the Sun travels, so could never be seen that high in the 'box'."
Maybe i've lived in OZ too long but as sun's sloping track moves south or back north its path has to cut across the high GT. ?
Before the horseshoe was built maybe the dead-set solstice was the main idea. Then when a priesthood and traditions were established they needed a bit longer ritual to employ themselves or whatever. The GT has to mean something specific and it can't point to anything except the sunset at its base on the Avenue line.
(just saw the neat pic. Should the GT be this side of the ring, giving a larger box in view?)
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Chimera,
The Sun's angle of descent is much more shallow than the Moon's at that time of year, so it's never high enough to 'cross the box', so to speak. Obviously, it does pass behind the body of S-55 to get to the central horizon location
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Also, when I say 'South', I mean Southwest.
The Great Trilithon is itself very mysterious and any number of associations have been given it over the years. The 4 other Trilithons are mated rough/smooth on the interior, but none match the careful tooling of 55 & 56. What's clear is that it's smoothed on all sides and apparently faces outward toward S-15 & 16. It appears as though the area framed by these four Stones was of considerable importance, and is most likely associated with the December Solstice.
The careful shaping of the 3 extant Stones, (with the inference of S-15) tells us that, unlike much of the backside of the Monument, special attention was given to this area.
Best,
Neil
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sem
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| Posted 01-01-2013 at 02:35
Hi all regarding "lightboxes", shadows etc.
You could do worse than read the various articles on MegP by JACKME http://www.megalithic.co.uk/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=JACKME
He spent many years recording sun/moon alignments at Stonehenge and thought that where both light and shadow fell was important. He once told me he suspected Stonehenge had the "ability" to predict every possible sun and moon rise and set via various gaps, notches etc. Furthermore, he suspected that generations of "astronomer-priests" lived and learned there. He seemed to think of Stonehenge in the same way that the archaeos now think of the Ghiza Pyramids, ie a dedicated workforce and priesthood.
Unfortunately, Jack is no longer with us, but maybe there is is someone as dedicated to take on his mantle. If Jack could drive from Cumbria for a certain sunrise (and he was in his eighties), I am sure someone who lives near SH could do the same.
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chimera
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| Posted 01-01-2013 at 07:31
So the base sunset at GT seems to be its purpose.
Here's a chappie in a party hat, maybe the GT man had a bigger one than the other 4 trilithon sentry guards.
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