On 2012-09-19 13:33, megalith6 wrote:
George reiterated - and going back to an earlier post (10.09.2012): "Hutton...pointed out, correctly, "the vast majority of prehistoric monuments in these islands do not relate to...the cardinal points of the sun". But why should they? Why should not some or many of the monuments contain symbolic cardinal references which are broadly directional? Hutton himself makes reference to a 19th century tribal Siberian "Yakut shaman [who] bows low to the four cardinal points" during a ceremony inside a tent, and there is no mention of the man consulting a compass at this point, so he is using the cardinal directions in a symbolic context. So what has this anthropological data to do with megalithic monuments in the British Isles? Well quite a lot, the underlying religion at this time was in all probability shamanic, a shamanism stretching back into the Mesolithic:

http://www.wiltshireheritage.org.uk/galleries/index.php?Action=3&obID=100&prevID=9

Then in this context you are almost certainly going to find references to symbolic cardinal directions side-by-side with precise astronomical references. But please do not make the mistake of applying a later mindset to prehistory, that would be to exclusively impose Euclidean geometry on prehistoric monument building which appears to be Hutton's intention. We simply must not and cannot arbitrarily impose the inventions and philosophies of later cultures on earlier cultures because it gives us a distorted impression. I am surprised that a professor of history such as Mr Hutton would intentionally do this?

I do not believe you can really improve on Burl anyway, in this field, in contemporary scholarship; and Burl records precise alignments but is equally very alive to the symbolic possibilities for the cardinal directions in preliterate societies.

Ref. 'The Shamans of Siberia', Ronald Hutton, 1993, pages 28-29.

On 2012-09-19 16:23, megalith6 wrote:
Sorry George, you are either intentionally ignoring the link to our shamanic Early Bronze Age heritage that I supplied or have omitted to study it. There is more evidence besides that shamanism probably played a major role in British prehistory, you may need to read up on this aspect of megalithic culture that is, for reasons unknown, apparently being studiously avoided in some quarters?

References:

Piggott, Stuart, ‘From Salisbury Plain to South Siberia’, WAHNS Magazine, vol.58, 1962;

Woodward, Ann, ‘British Barrows a Matter of Life and Death’, 2000.

On 2012-09-20 14:35, Runemage wrote:
Any religion in the neolithic cannot be proven as there's no record. However, comparison to other cultures albeit of different ages but similar advancement suggests to some people that it's a likely possibility.

Evidence of anything in the Neolithic is scant, but as the old saying goes, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Because of its non-documentation and intriguing artefacts and strange constructions, I think we all see the Neolithic as we'd like to, some of the anecdote and comparison with other cultures is enough for some people to believe that's how it was and others prefer to see it as an unknown social structure that won't be settled until definitive proof is found by excavation or scientific interpretation.

Perhaps we could look at the question of shamanism in the Neolithic from another angle. Are there any societies existing today or at first contact that are/were of a stone age level who don't/didn't have a shamanic or religious belief system? Or knowledge of the sun, moon and stars, or herbs, or...?

Rune

On 2012-09-20 20:42, cerrig wrote:
One indicator of a more organised society is specialisation of roles within that society, and education . Tool making is a specialised, and taught, skill. This has been going on for far longer than the times we are concerned with.
Any society that makes tools, or weapons, is organised to some degree, and it isn't difficult to see that any society organised enough to build megalithic structures would have evolved a wide base of different skills, and some form of education.
Someone in that kind of society would have taken on the role of a Shamen, in some guise or another. Who else would conduct the funerals?

On 2012-09-20 23:39, sem wrote:
If this link works
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/305553/images/GREAT+CAIRN%2C+RING+CAIRN+I%2C+CEFN+BRYN/
Cefn Bryn Ring Cairn 2 originally had an entrance to the South (pic is south facing) but now has 4 entrances facing the cardinal points. How did the sheep know these were the cardinal points?

On 2012-09-20 23:39, sem wrote:
If this link works
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/305553/images/GREAT+CAIRN%2C+RING+CAIRN+I%2C+CEFN+BRYN/
Cefn Bryn Ring Cairn 2 originally had an entrance to the South (pic is south facing) but now has 4 entrances facing the cardinal points. How did the sheep know these were the cardinal points?

On 2012-09-23 00:42, megalith6 wrote:
George wrote: “The idea of shamanism in the Neolithic is is hardly new . The Upton Lovell "shaman " burial doesn't need much "study" [you have George of course mentioned this to the Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society?] it is pure conjecture as is any mention of shamanism in the neolithic The short consideration in the Ann Woodward book concludes "may represent the deposition of ...of shamans" note the may . Few take that stance today .We simply do not know . Regardless , how does the actions of a 19 th C Siberian have anything to do with monument building in the Neolithic?”

Firstly, Siberian shamans who are hunter-gatherer priests, have everything to do with monument building in the Neolithic because their cousin cultures were probably overseeing it. You need to understand George, and so too Professor Hutton, that historical eras obtain mostly in books, not in reality, there was no titanic hand reaching down from the clouds 3000BCE holding a message board which read ‘thus ends the Mesolithic; now begins the Neolithic’, when in fact the Neolithic grew out of the Mesolithic, that is why the shamanic hunter-gatherer culture persisted right down into the Bronze Age. Now study any historical shaman’s drum, you will see they are generally alive with a dense, multilayered symbolism often including what appears to be pictorial reference to heavenly bodies and symbolic cardinal directions (see my earlier post).

Secondly, your and Ronald Hutton’s predilection for pin-point accuracy with regard to heavenly bodies (in Hutton’s case the sun) which are constantly in motion and often hidden from view, verges on the irrational to me. You don’t need a compass and theodolite to mark out a landscape with meaningful references to the seasonal rising and setting of the sun and / or moon, you do need lifetimes of careful observation of the horizon, perhaps generations of observers. Some of these pointers are going to be very accurate, some are going to merely reference the direction to watch for an event on the horizon. Some of the directions used are going to be perhaps purely symbolic, like those monuments which face south, the direction symbolic of summer and warmth, yet where the sun never rises or sets.

Please also remember that the megalithic culture in Britain comprised a great number of separate communities who may have used megaliths to express conflicting outlooks - for example, Bryn Celli Ddu started out as a stone circle, to end up as a chambered tomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryn_Celli_Ddu

Thirdly, Ronald Hutton’s attempt to reduce the significance of all prehistoric monuments to pin-point sight lines for the rising and setting of the sun suggests to me at least, a literalism, a reductive worldview and a singleness of vision which I find puritanical in spirit, and alarming in its potential ramifications. The plethora of symbols which decorate many megaliths in fact suggest the opposite worldview, a conception of a universe holding multiple symbolic significance.

Ronald Hutton’s tacit dismissal of the majority of megalithic monuments because they do not exactly relate “to any of...the cardinal points of the sun” is to me a modern paradigm of William Blake’s “May God us keep From Single vision & Newtons sleep” - and I absolutely and categorically reject that singleness of vision, and I reject the puritanical mindset.

May I leave you all with an autumnal alignment, I wish I were there to witness it.

Best bless,

Ric

http://www.boynevalleytours.com/loughcrew-equinox-2012.htm