| Author |
Ness of Brodgar |
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
 OFF-Line
|  Posted 04-06-2012 at 19:19
Many will have seen Neil Oliver's outstanding recent documentary, the BBC’s 'A History of Ancient Britain' special on the Neolithic site at the Ness of Brodgar.
This extraordinary site has provided many interesting finds including whalebone mace heads, polished stone axes, a carved figurine, outstanding dry-stone walling and stone 'dressers' similar to those at Skara Brae.
If ever we will find one of Thom's postulated measuring rods or any astronomical sighting apparatus, surely it will be at this very well-preserved site.
Does anyone know of any finds of this nature? Thom's work is still a highly controversial subject among professional archaeologists. Have any of the famous carved stone balls been found in situ at the Ness? If there are any contributors from Orkney a post or two would be most welcome.
The 2012 season of excavations on the Ness of Brodgar are due to begin on July 16, running until August 24, the site will be open to the public from Wednesday the 18th July.
 Profile
 Reply
|
Runemage
Joined:
15-07-2005
Messages: 2425
from UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 04-06-2012 at 23:31
I'm absolutely intrigued by the Ness, there's so much there that's like other places, Skara Brae and Barnhouse for starters. Many thanks for this year's dig dates.
a carved figurine
Do you mean 'Brodgar Boy' this is the latest on 'him', http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/nessofbrodgar/the-brodgar-boy/
Our sitepage comments are often where things are first reported http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=17401
It's reckoned that there's about another 10 years to spend digging the Ness site, so there's plenty time yet to find all sorts of things. Are you planning on visiting when the dig's in progress this year?
Rune
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-06-2012 at 20:02
Yes, i'm seriously thinking about a visit to Orkney in July but it's very expensive to get there. I want to hire a car and spend a few days looking at the classic sites with my trusty compass and GPS on the mobile and off course a digital camera. But its not really worth going unless its for three or four nights, including of course a couple of visits to the Kirkwall Museum.
At the Ness, I gather they are planning to complete the excavation of Structure 10 in July and examine other areas to confirm the extent of the Great Wall. Undoubtedly they will unearth many new finds and it would be very interesting indeed if they found a carved stone ball for example
Profile
Reply
|
Runemage
Joined:
15-07-2005
Messages: 2425
from UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-06-2012 at 22:59
Have you compared flight deals etc? That could well be cheaper than going by train and ferry.
Once you're there and have a car, everything's so close to each other on Mainland, it's an absolute dream to drive and stop every few minutes at another amazing neolithic site.
Best thing about going in June/July is it doesn't get dark after sundown, so your visiting times for the circles are virtually unlimited.
If I were you, I'd determine when the dig is about to start, they will maybe have to spend some time uncovering the site from last year so if you go too early into the project, they may not have had chance to unearth much. Their blog is written each day by a different student, so the information is fairly limited but nevertheless interesting.
Wish I could sneak into your suitcase... Orkney's an amazing place, the Ness area captivated me, there's Barnhouse, Stenness, Brodgar, Maeshowe and Unstan within minutes of each other and some are intervisible. Having been to Mainland twice, I'd go again like the proverbial shot. As well as the Ness area, don't miss the Tomb of the Eagles, the brand new ongoing dig next to it at Banks Chambered Tomb and a step deeply into the past at Minehowe. I didn't make it to Cuween hill cairn but one day...
If you're not familiar with any of the sites I've named, pop them into our search engine so you can plan a good itinerary if you've only got a few days.
Rune
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-06-2012 at 23:16
Thanks for the travel advice, I will look into flying up. It would be amazing to be there if they uncover something spectacular. I think if you are interested in the Neolithic you have to go to Orkney sometime!
Meanwhile, the Ness is being described as a temple complex of some sort - but the huge walls and external ditches facing the sea suggest a military, defensive function. The location between the Ring of Brodgar and the Stones of Stenness suggests to me that the inhabitants controlled access....Do you know why they think its a temple?
Profile
Reply
|
Runemage
Joined:
15-07-2005
Messages: 2425
from UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-06-2012 at 23:26
I think the temple ref has come from firstly the similarity of one of the Ness structures to one at Barnhouse, it's a double-skinned wall and not designed for domestic living.
Secondly, the 'dressers' that feature so much at Skara Brae are thought not to be domestic to display the best pottery, but religious/ritual in function. The double skinned building at the Ness has [from memory] a double dresser, or a back-to-back one, making it unique at any site discovered so far.
Rune
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 06-06-2012 at 22:39
There are a lot of well-preserved but admittedly much later brochs with double walls - they added strength to the structure, would have resisted fire and provided a storage space for provisions or livestock. Undoubtedly, the brochs could provide a refuge in times of strife. It would be nice to know if they have found any arrow-heads or sling-shots at the Ness or possibly a crushed skull or two!
So now I have to wonder what other sort of features might be expected in a neolithic temple? Its not unreasonable to suggest an altar, maybe drinking vessels, possibly benches of some sort for the faithful to sit upon....i'm not sure that double walls by themselves suggest a religious structure.
Profile
Reply
|
Runemage
Joined:
15-07-2005
Messages: 2425
from UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-06-2012 at 00:18
I'm not sure that double walls by themselves suggest a religious structure.
They occur in brochs but these are very different, have a look at the plans and descriptions,
The one at Barnhouse is shown here http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/barnhouse/barnh3.htm
Back to the Ness, Structure 10, have you read these reports from last year?
http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/nessofbrodgar/excavation-background-2/a-neolithic-temple/
I think you really need to go and see it on site and hopefully have one of the tours where it's explained on the spot. Then you can report back here with all the latest findings 
Rune
edited to show details of the Barnhouse structure.
[ This message was edited by: Runemage on 2012-06-07 02:17 ]
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 13-08-2012 at 19:36
Well, now I'm amazed to see on the Orkneyjar site that they have actually found a carved stone ball in situ within structure 10!
http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/nessofbrodgar/2012/08/dig-diary-thursday-august-9-2012/
Apparently the excavation director refuses to deliver to the finder the promised bottle of malt, on the slightly spurious grounds that its a rough-out and does not qualify...
Does anyone have a pic of this object? Maybe we could take a vote on it:}}
Profile
Reply
|
ESgt
Joined:
19-10-2010
Messages: 42
from SK 483342
OFF-Line
| Posted 15-08-2012 at 00:41
Quote:
|
On 2012-06-04 19:19, Equinox wrote:
If ever we will find one of Thom's postulated measuring rods or any astronomical sighting apparatus, surely it will be at this very well-preserved site.
Does anyone know of any finds of this nature? Thom's work is still a highly controversial subject among professional archaeologists. Have any of the famous carved stone balls been found in situ at the Ness? If there are any contributors from Orkney a post or two would be most welcome.
|
|
Visited the Orkney's sites September'11 with the Ley Hunter's Moot, and saw a tetrahedron ball, (or replica; think originals are in Edinburgh museum) in the Tomb of the Eagles visitor centre. Three nodes were patterned, with spirals etc, and one was polished but blank.
In my view Prof. Thom's interpreted measure reflects the human frame, as do digit (fingers), inch (thumbs), foot (feet), and cubit (forearms). The neolithic yard could be the stride (paces), or more likely the distance from chin to extended finger tips, commonly used for counting out lengths of rope and widths of fabric. Note that his result for the Scottish circles came out to be a little larger than the English ones = bigger people.
Mind you, there is evidence for brass faced quality management; in The Old Testament at Ezekiel 40.3.
Profile
 Email
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 15-08-2012 at 15:07
In my view, the subject of Thom's magalithic yard is still just too controversial to hope for a reasoned discussion but personally, I have an open mind. It's just not possible to lay out huge stone circles using rope, for the simple reason that it stretches. But if the excavation team found a graduated whalebone rod measuring 0.83m at the Ness, well that would settle it!
The many carved stone balls with tetrahedral and other "platonic" shapes have rarely been found in dated stratigraphy and i'm not aware of any that have been excavated in stone circles for example. Hopefully someone will post a pic of possible one found in S10 last week.
Profile
Reply
|
Andy B
Joined:
13-02-2001
Messages: 7042
from Surrey, UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 15-08-2012 at 22:21
Equinox, we covered some of the practicalities of stone circle building and the variations you get with John Barnatt at our live event. Wait for the video - hopefully it won't be too long...
Profile
Email
Reply
|
ESgt
Joined:
19-10-2010
Messages: 42
from SK 483342
OFF-Line
| Posted 17-08-2012 at 10:38
Quote:
|
On 2012-08-15 22:21, Andy B wrote:
Equinox, we covered some of the practicalities of stone circle building and the variations you get with John Barnatt at our live event. Wait for the video - hopefully it won't be too long...
|
|
An alternative explanation for the design of the stone circles, which accounts for the non-circular ones too, is given in this nice little book.
http://uk.nicebooks.com/ISBN/9780956750709
Profile
Email
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 06-10-2012 at 21:09
A very nice article on the Ness available on TheGuardian's website:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/oct/06/orkney-temple-centre-ancient-britain
Some lovely speculation on the function of the Ness complex - and it's very nice to read about possible astronomy at a Neolithic site in a mainstream UK newspaper 
Profile
Reply
|
Runemage
Joined:
15-07-2005
Messages: 2425
from UK
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-10-2012 at 14:41
Agreed, good article all except one important point,
" The promontory separates the island's two largest bodies of freshwater, the Loch of Stenness and the Loch of Harray." That's the first thing google brings up and is quoted on wiki, but I think it's wrong.
I'd always understood that the area's liminality was enhanced because Stenness loch was saltwater and Harray was freshwater.
This is from a fishing blog, http://www.odinorkney.com/pages/fishing.html
"Across the road from Odin is the Stenness Loch. The loch’s semi-marine environment dictates that it is very much affected by the state and height of the tides, causing wide fluctuations in water height and salinity in the loch. Odin again has the privileged position of being situated between the fresh water loch of Harray and the salt water loch of Stenness – an angler’s dream"
Rune
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-10-2012 at 15:29
Rune, that's well spotted - I read the article and never noticed the mistake about the Stenness Loch actually being salt-water!
But is does demonstrate that this was a special place for the people who built the structures at the Ness. The horizon may indeed have been used to make observations of the moon from the stone circles at Brodgar and Stenness and this just adds more interest to the whole area. It's good to see something about prehistoric astronomy in the mainstream media.
Profile
Reply
|
davidmorgan
Joined:
23-11-2006
Messages: 1620
from The New Forest
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-10-2012 at 16:25
Obviously archaeo-astronomers always like to tie every ancient site into their thinking, but who knows what the Ness of Brodgar guys were up to?
I think one thing is certain - death and respect for one's ancestors was a huge part of their spiritual beliefs, even more so when the neolithic folk stopped being semi-nomadic and properly settled down in one place. Probably the worst mistake humanity ever made was to start believing that the land was theirs.
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-10-2012 at 17:05
Maybe they were interested in seasonal turning points such as the solstices - and so the cycle of birth and death naturally follow on. They may also have noticed the female aspect of the monthly lunar cycle. I have a feeling that the place of women in Neolithic society has been underestimated!
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2705
OFF-Line
| Posted 07-10-2012 at 18:12
It's worth having a look at the horizon from the Ring of Brodgar and pinpoint what you might consider prominent landmarks that might make a decent foresight ,then compare these with Thom's suggestions . Only one of Thom's , Hellia is anything like obvious the rest are featureless hill slopes . Worse , his calculations were based on a date for the obliquity of the ecliptic that would place the monument midway between the Early - Middle Bronze Age probably out by at least 500 years . He did not propose any solar alignments for the site .
George
Profile
Reply
|
Equinox
Joined:
17-03-2010
Messages: 29
from Rochester
OFF-Line
| Posted 08-10-2012 at 10:07
Unfortunately I could'nt get up to the Ness this summer to have a look at the horizon myself. Thom took measurements of the fairly low-lying horizon, but many people were unconvinced of his possible lunar alignments, as you say.
However, many other investigators have suggested possible alignments in the area, this from the http://www.maeshowe.co.uk website:-
"There are a variety of astronomical alignments which may have been intended by the builders of the Standing Stones. While many stones are missing, simple observation suggests many possibilities. These relate to the solstices and the equinoxes as well as times such as Beltane (Old May Day). At winter and summer solstices the sunrises and sunsets align with the stones and notches in the hills. Other outlying standing stones may be markers for specific times of year also. At spring and autumn equinoxes, viewed from the Comet Stone, the sun sets just glancing off the westernmost stone."
Maes Howe is not far from the Ness and is visible from the Stenness stones - the main passage is said to be aligned on the winter solstice.
Profile
Reply
|
Main News