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Landsker_man
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|  Posted 20-05-2012 at 16:58
Can happen naturally WITHOUT Human help? I stumbled across this today during my walk on the Preseli hills,lets just say it is within a mile of Carn Menyn for now...
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
I placed my back up camera in a couple of the shots to give it a sense of scale,this is no small rock,I tried to move the top portion myself and failed.....I am open to any suggestions or speculation on this . When you find something like this ,it makes the effort of going off the beaten track worthwhile... I personally cannot see how this stone has been split apart without Human intervention....Im open to ideas...
All the best
Hugh
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Landsker_man
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|  Posted 20-05-2012 at 19:00
Further to the post above ,I feel the following is relevant ..
1. The stone is within 1 mile of Carn Menyn
2. It is NOT in a place accessible to vehicles,it is in fact difficult to get to across a VERY boggy landscape.
3. If it was being split by a modern farmer to make a post ,why would they pick THIS stone when there are hundreds if not thousands closer to known trackways ,far more readily removable,because of the location of this stone and local dangers ,I feel it could never have been intended for that purpose.
4. Perhaps it is an ancient piece of "work in progress " that went wrong,perhaps it was intended to erect the removed part as a standing stone,given its position,many would not think this idea far fetched.
5. It is a modern piece of "art" intended by some VERY zealous pro Stonehenge Bluestone enthusiast to be left and "found" at a later date...
6. Whoever it was SOMEONE has put a lot of effort into something in a remote place
I would like to post an image showing this stones location ,but would like to invite some speculation first ,not on its position ,but on what this stone may have been intended for...
Food for thought me thinks
all the best
Hugh
[ This message was edited by: Landsker_man on 2012-05-20 19:21 ]
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sem
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| Posted 20-05-2012 at 20:23
Hi Hugh
It's always difficult to judge from a photo what has happened and normally I would sit on the fence except for one thing..
There is a stone at the far eastern end of the Carn Meini outcrop that appears to have been split (and then has broken) in exactly the same way! The break is V-shaped and so it is not your stone.
Given all the other semi-shaped stones lying around here, I would go for human action.
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Landsker_man
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| Posted 20-05-2012 at 20:45
Hi Sem
Hope you are well
Thank you for your input,this stone is overlooked by Carn Menyn,in a rather tricky place to get to,Im going to give you a clue which is probably of greater interest to you....Im sure you remember this stone pointing at a Carn on the horizon...
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
Well I put a compass on it today,and while the straight edge is pointing to the Carn ,does the info on the compass help you at all?
By landsker_man at 2012-05-20
The stone I found is a long way down the same feature....
All the best
Hugh
[ This message was edited by: Landsker_man on 2012-05-20 20:49 ]
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 20-05-2012 at 22:27
If it was a stone that was being split but snapped the chock stone or wedge would need to be much smaller because you would not be able to drive that one in. So; either it was split and then that stone was placed there prior to some further use that has never been carried out or it was wedged like that ready for lifting and was never moved. either way it seems near impossible that this was not deliberate human action but there is no way to date it.
Just one of those curio's that only the chap who did it could answer. Without which this site would not exist!
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Feanor
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| Posted 22-05-2012 at 02:22
Hi Hugh, Neil here.
With regard to the top few pics ...
I cannot tell if the slab is still whole beneath its longitudinal split. If so perhaps they were attempting to shiver it down the middle?
The lichens tell a story here as well. They are prevalent on the main chunk, and likewise on the shim (or wedge) used between the halves.
Though this flora is difficult to 'date' as it were, the various types have a known life-span and its previous layers are usually in evidence. Therefore it could tell us if the work is more than 500 years old, for example, rather than 20.
I mention this only because, as shown in the photos, the transverse break appears to be fresh. If there are similar lichens on the interior of these 2 faces perhaps a case could be made for the stone's abandonment at the time of the work.
(Let's blame an exuberant, inexperienced apprentice, driving a large wedge to fast!)
For what it's worth, I am with Sem & FC42 in terms of the probability of Human Action.
The fact that its location is well off the beaten track is also a nudge toward the prehistoric.
Is there evidence of any working elsewhere on the stone?
(It looks unnaturally rounded)
Do other stones in the vicinity show the work of hand?
Is the dolerite in the area a known source of the SH Bluestones?
I would be interested in any follow-up on your investigations.
Well done.
Best wishes,
Neil
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sem
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| Posted 22-05-2012 at 10:55
Hi Hugh, I've just posted a picture of the one I found and will give a link when the mods have done their bit.
Both stones seem to have been split by exploiting the natural weakness of the bedding plane. If it is by human-hand, I think they may have started with a wooden wedge and then soaked the wood and let it freeze (both of which would make the wood expand). Stone wedges could have then been used to continue the split until a lateral weakness (or a clumsy workman) caused the stone to break.
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sem
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| Posted 22-05-2012 at 11:38
Here's the link
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=89375
Thanks whoever modded this like lightening.
Sem
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Landsker_man
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| Posted 23-05-2012 at 20:59
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On 2012-05-20 22:27, frogcottage42 wrote:
If it was a stone that was being split but snapped the chock stone or wedge would need to be much smaller because you would not be able to drive that one in. So; either it was split and then that stone was placed there prior to some further use that has never been carried out or it was wedged like that ready for lifting and was never moved. either way it seems near impossible that this was not deliberate human action but there is no way to date it.
Just one of those curio's that only the chap who did it could answer. Without which this site would not exist!
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Hi frogcottage42
Yes I agree the the wedge would need to be a little slimmer in order to get a balanced, clean more controlled break,it must have been rather difficult trying to pound that wedge into there. Imagine this though,an ambitious slightly less experienced stone splitter,maybe a youngster "having a go" not listening to his teacher decides to carry on because he thinks knows better,breaks the stone then in his moment of anger when he realises he should have listened gives it a couple of almighty whacks in frustration? Sound familiar? I think we have all been there....
All the best
Hugh
[ This message was edited by: Landsker_man on 2012-05-23 21:16 ]
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Landsker_man
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| Posted 23-05-2012 at 21:15
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On 2012-05-22 02:22, Feanor wrote:
Hi Hugh, Neil here.
With regard to the top few pics ...
I cannot tell if the slab is still whole beneath its longitudinal split. If so perhaps they were attempting to shiver it down the middle?
The lichens tell a story here as well. They are prevalent on the main chunk, and likewise on the shim (or wedge) used between the halves.
Though this flora is difficult to 'date' as it were, the various types have a known life-span and its previous layers are usually in evidence. Therefore it could tell us if the work is more than 500 years old, for example, rather than 20.
I mention this only because, as shown in the photos, the transverse break appears to be fresh. If there are similar lichens on the interior of these 2 faces perhaps a case could be made for the stone's abandonment at the time of the work.
(Let's blame an exuberant, inexperienced apprentice, driving a large wedge to fast!)
For what it's worth, I am with Sem & FC42 in terms of the probability of Human Action.
The fact that its location is well off the beaten track is also a nudge toward the prehistoric.
Is there evidence of any working elsewhere on the stone?
(It looks unnaturally rounded)
Do other stones in the vicinity show the work of hand?
Is the dolerite in the area a known source of the SH Bluestones?
I would be interested in any follow-up on your investigations.
Well done.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Hi Neil
I agree this has to have been done by Human hand there is no question,but its the age that needs to be reckoned . As you rightly say it seems to be the Lichen has been disturbed "in the wake" of the wedges path and although it has begun to grow back it needs to be estimated as to how old this break is. I know of someone who is a qualified botanist whom I will be supplying a disc of photos and maybe a "cutting" of the Lichen to estimate the growth rates. I also intend to go back there very soon to try to get answers to the list of questions i have been asked regarding this stone.
I am willing to let you know the stone is actually closer than i originally quoted it is in fact within a few hundred yards of the Carn Menyn"bluestone" outcrops" and yes there is another stone I have spotted that appears to have work done along an edge....
By landsker_man at 2012-05-23
By landsker_man at 2012-05-23
By landsker_man at 2012-05-23
This stone looked like it has been "propped" here in this position and work done along this "sharp" edge,all the other stones do not appear to present such sharp edges,I believe this stone has been modified.
I will post here any further findings when i return to the site
All the very best
Hugh
[ This message was edited by: Landsker_man on 2012-05-23 21:18 ]
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Landsker_man
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| Posted 23-05-2012 at 21:36
Hi Sem
Wow interesting indeed,Im going to have a look for this stone also ....
Im going to go back on my next walk and get some clearer photos of the lichen and lateral split on the stone ,which looks "newer" than the main split. I just hope it is not some modern crank who has done this intending for the lichen to grow back so it could not be dated easily, I have one doubt over the stone I found and that is the depth the wedge stone is inside the body of the main stone,it would be rather difficult and awkward to have hit that in there,given the low position of the stone without a modern heavy hammer to swing with I fear but even that would not be easy given the angle to work with... Perhaps some modern archaeologists have been "experimenting with technique" deciding to leave it there to be discovered later by someone when the lichen has hopefully covered the wedges path....
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sem
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| Posted 23-05-2012 at 22:04
..or a log of wood inserted into the split after the stone wedge, and you then hit this with the hammer?
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Landsker_man
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| Posted 24-05-2012 at 06:45
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On 2012-05-23 22:04, sem wrote:
..or a log of wood inserted into the split after the stone wedge, and you then hit this with the hammer?
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Yes!! Never thought of that one....that could certainly explain the depth of the wedge....like we would use a center punch to drive a nail into wood today......
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Dragonsinger
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 19:39
Oh come on guys.
Picture this:
Ancient Brit monument builder and apprentice.
Wooden wedge driven in along the bedding plane. CRACK!! Right either we need more wedges or... Hang on a mo, bung that lump of rock in there.
Great! Let's do that again, and again, and.. OH $%&^"!I dropped the hammerstone on my foot. I'm going for a lie down.
OK it's a fantasy
Mabey.
Regards
Jim
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sem
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| Posted 13-09-2012 at 21:19
Hi Jim
It doesn't have to be an apprentice making the mistake. Most chunks of stone have internal weaknesses that can only be estimated by looking at the exterior. Maybe it's just a case of pass another stone the last one split - a very old and (depending on the subject) rude joke.
Best wishes
Sem
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Dragonsinger
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 10:49
Hi Sem
OK point taken.
But is the scenario valid?
Regards
Jim
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sem
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| Posted 14-09-2012 at 11:29
Yes Jim
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