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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Stonehenge Questions
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Stonehenge Questions |
jonm
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|  Posted 04-05-2012 at 11:28
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| The Egyptians and later cultures e.g. Chinese and builders of Cahokia showed an interest in cardinal orientations but it is not significant in European prehistory . |
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Apart from the above list, if our ancestors had no knowledge of cardinal directions, particularly East and West, why did they take the trouble, prior to building monuments, to bury their dead in cardinal directions?
Stone-Age Burials as a Hint to Prehistoric Astronomy
Are you certain we're not talking at cross purposes? I'm having difficulty following the argument.
Jon
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jonm
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 11:41
Quote:
| Does that not suggest that solar patterns including equinoxes were important in that time? It's said Knowth aligns East-West, but why, considering the other specific alignments of its neighbours, is it not thought that the equinox alignment was an equally important factor to its builders? Why would they build the other mounds with alignment-specific passages and then Knowth with no pre=planned alignment, it doesn't make sense. |
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Can't disagree, but is that because these event directions (solstices in particular) were special and that cardinals were mundane?
The alternative seems to be to construct a world-view where non-cardinal event-directions would be in common use.
With the exception of a tribe in Australia, I can't find an example of a society where east and west aren't used as mundane descriptions in their recorded history.
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tiompan
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 12:10
The east rising sun and west setting have always been associated with birth /death renewal etc . Like solstices etc it's cosmological .
We may be talking at cross purposes . What I'm saying is that there is little evidence that cardinal point orientations or the quadriparure concept were that important in European prehistory . FWIW the Hopi use the solstices as their principle directions but they are not prehistoric Europeans .
George
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On 2012-05-04 11:28, jonm wrote:
Quote:
| The Egyptians and later cultures e.g. Chinese and builders of Cahokia showed an interest in cardinal orientations but it is not significant in European prehistory . |
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Apart from the above list, if our ancestors had no knowledge of cardinal directions, particularly East and West, why did they take the trouble, prior to building monuments, to bury their dead in cardinal directions?
Stone-Age Burials as a Hint to Prehistoric Astronomy
Are you certain we're not talking at cross purposes? I'm having difficulty following the argument.
Jon
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Runemage
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 13:07
Can't disagree, but is that because these event directions (solstices in particular) were special and that cardinals were mundane?
I don't know, John, and I don't know where to start to look for an evidence-based answer to your question.
Hopefully either one of our regulars or even one of our silent readers will know and let you know!
A quick modern-day observation on knowing the directions in daily life.... US folk have directions built in to their street patterns, (listen to any chase in a cop show) the average Brit wouldn't know which direction they were travelling in without consulting an instrument.
Rune
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jonm
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 15:20
Quote:
| What I'm saying is that there is little evidence that cardinal point orientations or the quadriparure concept were that important in European prehistory . |
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Thanks George; agreed, there's little in the way of apparent evidence. I'm very grateful for this train of thought.
All the best
Jon
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jonm
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 15:22
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| I don't know, John, and I don't know where to start to look for an evidence-based answer to your question. |
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Thanks Rune.
Jon
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jonm
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| Posted 04-05-2012 at 15:56
Hi Neil
Quote:
| Has anyone ever scratched around 11 to see it it's got a regular sized base? |
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Not chopped liver, just no idea.
jon
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Feanor
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| Posted 06-05-2012 at 16:01
All this talk of cardinals has me wondering, if 11 is its original size, perhaps the peculiarities have to do with South, which passes between it and 12.
It also sits at the edge of the so-called 'Mound'. Not clearly understood, the interior of this feature was partially excavated in 2008 by Darvill & Wainwright, who found that the Romans may have played a larger role at SH than that of just Tourists.
The Romans were big on Cardinals, so I wonder if they may have fiddled with this Stone for purposes of their own belief-system.
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jonm
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| Posted 22-05-2012 at 20:25
Did you find the CAD any use Neil?
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Feanor
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| Posted 25-05-2012 at 20:24
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On 2012-05-22 20:25, jonm wrote:
Did you find the CAD any use Neil?
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Hi Jon!
Yes I have spent some time playing with it, thank you. Import & export seems a bit archaic, but I realize it's a 2004 version.
Like my now long-time use of Photoshop, it's not particularly intuitive, (and that took about a year for me to master), so it's taking some time to get used to.
__________________
In reviewing some of this SH material and trying to get my ducks in a row, I have stumbled upon a rather interesting set of coincidences, if such they are, and I wondered if anyone has seen the same thing.
(Without doubt, someone somewhere has!)
I've always wondered what the story was with Bell Barrow 11 and why it was situated so close to the Henge. A beautiful thing, it's a marvel all by itself. Our Mr Fenton has taken any number of his famous Kite pictures of it. But it always seemed a bit intrusive, considering that, though most of the nearby Barrows are within sight of the Citadel, they are at a 'respectful distance' as it were.
Anyway, I did a little line-drawing and some arithmetic and it seems that this well-placed Barrow is located on a precise 45 degree angle from the center of SH and its Solstice Alignment. (The line just kisses the south side of Stone 4, but doesn't touch Aubrey 7.)
Additionally, the Barrow's diameter appears to be the same as the Stone Circle itself, or ~110 feet.
This diameter seems to be significant at SH as well, in that it's the same distance from the Stone Circle to the Ditch.
Also, the Barrow's distance from the SH Ditch precisely matches the diameter of the Henge itself, ~330 feet. (or ~550 feet center-to-center.)
There are probably more of these weird co-inkydinks that I haven't seen, but should anyone know if there's a larger story, I would be very interested in hearing it.
If this stuff is intentional, it means that those people were very 'into' whatever it was they were either trying to convey or celebrate.
Best,
Neil
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[ This message was edited by: Feanor on 2012-05-26 06:51 ]
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sem
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| Posted 25-05-2012 at 21:40
"Anyway, I did a little line-drawing and some arithmetic and it seems that this well-placed Barrow is located on a precise 45 degree angle from the center of SH and its Solstice Alignment. (The line just kisses the south side of Stone 4, but doesn't touch Aubrey 7.)"
Hi Feanor
I was just going to contradict you but then realised I'd misread your post. Soooorry!
However, my point was that the same alignment takes in a beautiful view through Bluestone61 and then the Stones 4&5 trilithon and, conveniently misses the 51&52 trilithon just to it's South.
I'll post a pic.
Best wishes
Sem
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sem
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| Posted 25-05-2012 at 23:41
Feanor, the link
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=89496
Again, thanks to the Mods who move stones with the ease of a pencil.
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 00:07
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Did you find the CAD any use Neil?
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Hi Jon!
Yes I have spent some time playing with it, thank you. Import & export seems a bit archaic, but I realize it's a 2004 version.
Like my now long-time use of Photoshop, it's not particularly intuitive, (and that took about a year for me to master), so it's taking some time to get used to.
[/quote]
I would like to leap to the defence of older programs at this point, I use Autocad architectural desktop 2004 and it is the nuts.
I have newer programs and programs that do a lot more with less effort but if you want to plot the position of a variety of items with accuracy within a 1000th of a millimetre 0r degree any Autodesk program from 2000 or newer is easily capable.
In most cases the actual survey of a site is far less likely to be as accurate as a rough CAD drawing so any measurements or calculations need to be exactly confirmed.
If there is a definitive laser survey available for public use then importing that into CAD is the only sure way otherwise you will find that 'squinting' a bit left or right of any given point is going to achieve almost any result you look for.
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rogeralbin
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 01:53
Just a thought, looks like a headless figure, which celestial object would provide a head and halo?
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Feanor
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 03:28
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On 2012-05-26 00:07, frogcottage42 wrote:
I would like to leap to the defence of older programs at this point, I use Autocad architectural desktop 2004 and it is the nuts.
I have newer programs and programs that do a lot more with less effort but if you want to plot the position of a variety of items with accuracy within a 1000th of a millimetre 0r degree any Autodesk program from 2000 or newer is easily capable.
In most cases the actual survey of a site is far less likely to be as accurate as a rough CAD drawing so any measurements or calculations need to be exactly confirmed.
If there is a definitive laser survey available for public use then importing that into CAD is the only sure way otherwise you will find that 'squinting' a bit left or right of any given point is going to achieve almost any result you look for.
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LOL, FC!
I have 2 defensive positions here. hee hee!
Firstly, my original reference to the CAD program was that Jon sent me Cleal's 1995 interpretation of the SH layout in a DWT format that I cannot read. So he linked me up with a (now) open source version of IntelliCad. My remarks were directed to that application as I had been woefully remiss with a proper response.
It didn't really bear on the following subject of Bell Barrow 11, which is why I put an underscore there.
Secondly, I have the utmost respect for some of the older programs, and use many "outdated" versions for much the same reason you mention. e.g. my main writing program is MS Word v.10! That's the 2001 edition. Love it / hate the new stuff.
For the record, I used LIDAR imaging of the region to form the basis of my "thesis", (if such it is!) I understand that it's good to about 3 inches, depending on the simulated altitude. Not too bad for line-of-sight at 600 feet.
Best wishes, friend!
Neil
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Feanor
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 05:02
_____________________
The above base image is copyrighted by English Heritage and is modified only to the extent that additions to it depict an illustrative concept. Original items deleted have been so for the sake of clarity. The publisher makes no claim to the creation of the original work.
_____________________
OK ... so here's what I came up with.
As Sem has noted (and provided a great Photo) if you sort of crane your neck between BS-61 and Stone 51 you'll be looking through Circle Stones 4&5, directly toward the Bell Barrow. Turning the other way will point you to the Circle's exact center. (see sightlines in the above drawing)
The big deal here I guess, is that this line bisects the Solstice alignment at 45 degrees, and, like all other alignments including Cardinals, does not cross an Aubrey Hole.
This supports the contention that, other than missing the Aubreys, the Cardinals played a minor role in layout & construction.
Further, that since the various dimensions, distances and geometry are seemingly intentional with respect to the Henge, that the Bell Barrow should be considered in portion with the greater structure.
(Now all someone need do is tell me is when it was built, and at what stage Stonehenge was in when this took place!)
Neil
________________
** Apparently ImageShack thinks I'm a crook despite my copyright acknowledgement and disclaimer ...
The picture was Cleal's 1995 Stonehenge rendering, showing the details of what I'm talking about.
The image below is a more distant view but conveys much the same information. **
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[ This message was edited by: Feanor on 2012-05-26 15:46 ]
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Feanor
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 06:33
This is what I'm attempting to convey.
I'm sure it's no big deal and will turn out to be yet another one of those things that I simply haven't learned yet, but it does seem strange that the close proximity of this Barrow would be incidental in light of the peculiar geometry and repetitious measurements.
If anyone knows about this please don't keep it a secret.
Neil
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jonm
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 07:03
Quote:
| Secondly, I have the utmost respect for some of the older programs, and use many "outdated" versions for much the same reason you mention. e.g. my main writing program is MS Word v.10! That's the 2001 edition. Love it / hate the new stuff. |
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Me too. Shame Novell didn't continue with Wordperfect in my opinion (I still use it for some things because it's better at them than MS 2010.)
You'll be surprised how similar that old CAD program is to current versions. The best thing they did was to make the interface similar to AutoCAD.
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jonm
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| Posted 26-05-2012 at 07:26
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| If anyone knows about this please don't keep it a secret. |
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I have it modelled somewhere, but from recollection it's about 6 degrees from east rather than 5?
Sunrise this morning was beautiful:
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Feanor
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| Posted 28-05-2012 at 16:20
Great shot, Jon.
I see you've also captured the remnant of a rare Neolithic Clothesline!
Previously only conjectured to exist, when we account for the Precession of the Equinox and high Lunar Standstill, if we stand on one foot and twirl slightly to the left on the second Tuesday after Beltane, we'll see what appears to be the shadow of wool blankets hanging out to dry.
(I've made a complete study!)
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As mentioned, Cardinal Directions play a minor role in the alignment of BB-11 & SH. The point seems to be that the line, center to center, appears to bisect the Solstice Alignment at 45 degrees, which should be roughly 6.3 off East, yes.
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