On 2012-03-08 13:50, tiompan wrote:
Tom ,I'm not sure if Ihave got this right but are you saying that for the findings to be found false , it would require one dowser providing one set of results that does not conform with those of another dowser ?

Quote:

On 2012-03-08 13:29, ledgehammer wrote: Quote: On 2012-03-08 12:30, tiompan wrote: Tom , how can the findings be found to be false ? George [quote] . But my point is that the measurements and findings from the dowsing is data, irrespective of its source, it may be verified or found to be false i.e under conditions which lead to the results, rather than discovering, but is still data. Tom

George,

I am unaware based on the way in which I have followed the process, I could be missing something which is why currently I am trying to get others involved. I stress that the process should not be directed at whether dowsing works or does not work, as dowsing is clearly influenced by the mind of the dowser, but the dowser(s) data should be cross referenced to establish a confirmation of the results, and this should be repeated at different locations of different types using the variable of previous human occupation.

Best wishes

Tom

On 2012-03-08 16:21, jonm wrote:
Tom

George has a good point. You know what you've found so you'll also know how the test if the dataset is wrong. The first thing to do is probably to work out how to show the dataset is wrong as if you were working against your own theory, then do that test. If you find that it's not wrong as a result of the test, then you might be on to something. If you find the evidence is better as a result of the test then open up the data to everyone else so that they can trash it. If the evidence becomes stronger as a result of everyone else trashing it, then you really might be onto something.

The biggest problem you have will be to distinguish between individuals who can't dowse but say they can, those who can only do it some days, those who can do it consistently and those who use the body language of others to do it consistently.

Not easy.

Jon

On 2012-03-08 22:58, sem wrote:
Tom
Given the questions and comments from Jon and George, do you think that if dowsers A,B,C and D get different results from dowser E, would you consider dowser E to be wrong?
Or maybe all are human?

On 2012-03-09 18:50, Runemage wrote:
On page 5 of this discussion, I suggested some experiential work to advance understanding of the invisible force that some find and others dispute.

As luck would have it, or serendipity if you're that way minded, there's a free course coming up internationally online which explores this very thing in much more depth. Whilst it is focused on healing, the actual energy it uses is what we've discussed so many times on here and in civilisations that acknowledge its presence, for thousands of years it's been called chi, ki, prana, mana etc.

Usually, learning something like this in its Eastern form could traditionally take years, if not a lifetime. However, this is especially designed for Westerners to be able to do without having to understand the Eastern mindset. All the inference, mysticism, mystery and secrecy has been removed and transformed into some simple exercises that anyone Western can do with little effort and more importantly, they can achieve results from the first attempt.

If you really want to know what people talk about when they say they can feel the energy at a site, then have a go at these simple exercises and you'll be able to feel what has been discussed on here for so long. No amount of question and answer here will come anything like as close as this to fostering understanding.

How many times has this been said here, well it's said on their site too! We were all born with this innate ability. But you really have to experience it for yourself to believe it.

You will need to register an email address here to You will receive an email with a link to a special website. Simply go to that website any time after 10:00 am Central Time on Monday, March 12, and before 9:30 am Central Time on Tuesday to listen to the first two sessions.

The sessions are On-Demand, which means you can experience them any time you want during the periods they are available http://www.learningstrategies.com/SpringForestHealingfest/home.aspx?aff=HS1518
The 6 day course starts on 12 March.

Enjoy!

Rune

On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote:

Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment .
Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ?
George

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George Quote: On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom

On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George Quote: On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom

Tom , where did I say that chi was exclusive to ancient sites ?
I was interested in the fact that chi has been suggested as an explanation for the energy that people feel at ancient sites and wondered why there are so few mentions of this in texts from thousands of years ago to today from all those cultures that have similar vitalisitic beliefs . It is also intriguing that this belief seems to have started in the mid 60's in the west .
George

On 2012-03-11 19:59, tiompan wrote:
Tom , I'm not sure where the reike comment fits into the what has been said . Fwiw , I don't see how the age ,ancien or modern validates anything . Just because it is ancient or modern doesn't mean much , does it work ? People believe stuff simply beacause it's ancient which is as sad as believing it because it is modern or hip .
Virgin Mary and Sitchin (not that he is modern or hip ) etc .
George

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote: Quote: On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George [quote] On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom

On 2012-03-11 20:03, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

Tom , where did I say that chi was exclusive to ancient sites ? I was interested in the fact that chi has been suggested as an explanation for the energy that people feel at ancient sites and wondered why there are so few mentions of this in texts from thousands of years ago to today from all those cultures that have similar vitalisitic beliefs . It is also intriguing that this belief seems to have started in the mid 60's in the west . George

George,

You didn't. But it also is an explanation for the energy that people feel when meditating, or a multiple of practices which can happen anywhere. Such a readilly accepted thing may not have been documented, what has been documented/ and what was the method of documentation/ what era's are we talking about? The way I see it is that the ancient sites were designed to be used with the human key to get closer to x, whether x is a god in the context of worship or something else which has been translated to mean God/ i.e pure energy or Chi, perhaps the symbols at the sites are a symbolic representation of this, as we do not have a factual grasp of the decorations of the sites and sybology I am not willing to discount it. These sites design seems to benefit the art of feng shui, which is an art based of free flowing energy. Perhaps there are clues in the sites themselves?

Tom

On 2012-03-11 20:11, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 19:59, tiompan wrote: Tom , I'm not sure where the reike comment fits into the what has been said . Fwiw , I don't see how the age ,ancien or modern validates anything . Just because it is ancient or modern doesn't mean much , does it work ? People believe stuff simply beacause it's ancient which is as sad as believing it because it is modern or hip . Virgin Mary and Sitchin (not that he is modern or hip ) etc . George Quote: On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote: [quote] On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George [quote] On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom

Tom , do you believe that the "energy" that people experience at ancient sites is chi ?
Does it not strike you as odd the number of accounts since the 60's of energies being experience at sites from western commentators compared with the huge amount of recordings we have of visits to sites prior to this and from many different cultures some of which have a vitalist tradition and yet they don't mention this connection ? The vast majority of sites do not have any symbols , and those that do are abstract so you can can suggest anything you like but one of the few with representations , with little room for intrepretation is Stonehenge with it's daggers and axes do you think they might represent chi ?
George

On 2012-03-11 20:52, Runemage wrote:
Quick clarification.

Reiki is Japanese and is pronounced with equal emphasis on each syllable Ray Key. Rei is universal and ki is life-force. So, Ki is the Japanese equivalent of Chinese Chi [and Indian Prana and Hawaiian Mana and the unseen but widely recognised force in many other cultures]

Mikao Usui fasted for 21 days and had a sartori [enlightenment experience] on a sacred mountain and depending who you read, re-discovered the ancient practise of Reiki or discovered a new way to utilise Ki. As taught in the West, it's a healing modality, much the same as the Qigong practise we're going to be hearing about and seeing on the course. As taught in Japan it's a complete way of life in itself, they consider the healing aspect of it to be a pleasant offshoot.

For research into Reiki as a Japanese practise, and a factual rather than new agey interpretation of who Usui Sensei was and what he did, see the research done by Frank Arjava Petter and have a read of his "Reiki, the Legacy of Dr. Usui" and "The Original Reiki Handbook of Dr. Mikao Usui"

Rune

On 2012-03-11 20:33, tiompan wrote:
Tom , what example ?
George

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 20:11, ledgehammer wrote: Quote: On 2012-03-11 19:59, tiompan wrote: Tom , I'm not sure where the reike comment fits into the what has been said . Fwiw , I don't see how the age ,ancien or modern validates anything . Just because it is ancient or modern doesn't mean much , does it work ? People believe stuff simply beacause it's ancient which is as sad as believing it because it is modern or hip . Virgin Mary and Sitchin (not that he is modern or hip ) etc . George [quote] On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote: [quote] On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George [quote] On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom

On 2012-03-11 22:36, sem wrote:
As a quick one on energy and chi, the brain interprets the information it receives based on previous experience from all senses. So if someone experiences previously unknown energy at a place "known" to be haunted, logic suggests that person will see a ghost.

On 2012-03-11 22:34, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

Tom , do you believe that the "energy" that people experience at ancient sites is chi ? Does it not strike you as odd the number of accounts since the 60's of energies being experience at sites from western commentators compared with the huge amount of recordings we have of visits to sites prior to this and from many different cultures some of which have a vitalist tradition and yet they don't mention this connection ? The vast majority of sites do not have any symbols , and those that do are abstract so you can can suggest anything you like but one of the few with representations , with little room for intrepretation is Stonehenge with it's daggers and axes do you think they might represent chi ? George

George,

Not that my belief is relevant but I can only go on my own experience, and I can feel a type of energy which I consider to be the same as the force described as chi, I can feel this when I think about it, when I meditate, when I used to do Tai Chi.
I also believe there to be places where this process seems easier, and you can feel more connected and amoungst others ancient sites (again a wide term and I think we need to be more specific), I would go further to combine this with my research which I consider to be more scientific then say a feeling, and that these places have spots that have detectable if nothing else magnetic consequence in which this energy can influence the human standing on this point, and one step further in burying the dead.
Stonehenge, I am unsure of as dowsing it i did not find any nodes, but an energy alignment which eminated from the avenue, I would suggest that this is inconsistant with other sites such as Avebury, where there are more energy formations which are dowseable, and a degree of duality within the symbology there, which could be referred to as Yin and Yang, of course this could resemble a ritual mating process amoung many other things : so not conclusive, but room for speculation.
Incidently The ancient sites I thought you were referring to were of an Eastern nature hence their involvement with Chi, irrespective of the literature have these sites not been used for pilgrimage and meditation, and has the practice and belief of Chi been around during that time?

Tom

On 2012-03-11 22:41, ledgehammer wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-03-11 20:33, tiompan wrote: Tom , what example ? George Quote: On 2012-03-11 20:11, ledgehammer wrote: [quote] On 2012-03-11 19:59, tiompan wrote: Tom , I'm not sure where the reike comment fits into the what has been said . Fwiw , I don't see how the age ,ancien or modern validates anything . Just because it is ancient or modern doesn't mean much , does it work ? People believe stuff simply beacause it's ancient which is as sad as believing it because it is modern or hip . Virgin Mary and Sitchin (not that he is modern or hip ) etc . George [quote] On 2012-03-11 19:32, ledgehammer wrote: [quote] On 2012-03-11 18:05, tiompan wrote: Not an uncommon practice to have burials in the home never mind within sight . Different times and places e.g. Catal Hoyuk 7000 BC Turkey , Lepenski Vir Serbia 6000 BC , Karanova Bulgaria 6000 BC Hallan South Uist 2200 BC . At other times and places there were cemeteries outside the settlment . Any of these Fen shui masters comment on qi being found at megalithic sites ? George [quote] On 2012-03-11 17:50, vlad wrote: As for discussion on qi, up there.Yeap, Rune`s mentioning of Feng Shui was quite right. Then; Chinese masters state frequently that the starting point for their Feng Shui art was once to optimalize the location of a progenitor house with respect to his parents grave. How could we apply such a statement to the European megalithic world? Are there any examples of huts or "manors" located in a conspicuous way towards megalithic sepulchral constructions? Well; first some clarifications could be in place here. A grave could be located in a yang-centre, containing a burnt corpse residues. From that, an intention could be read of releasing "soul" as soon as possible and sending it to "heavens".Chinese statement points rather to internment without burning the corpse, within a in-centre... That is, if the forefathers are supposed to intervene continuously into the lives of their progeny. OK. There are many fragmentary insights, which you should put together, before any picture comes out. And Feng Shui masters do not provide cut and clear answers, even if you`d become a pupil to one of them. In this case, a tortuous way of stepwise initiations would be awaiting, laid out over many years. But you can circumvent that to some degree. Try first to solve the question how you could tell a yang- from a yin-place. Li Ding`s "Meridian Qigong" is the source I referred to above but there are many other similar books, which can help to prepare your own bare body to the role of a geomantic tool. The one who seeks, you know... [ This message was edited by: vlad on 2012-03-11 17:52 ]

George,

Why would qi be exclusive to ancient sites? My understanding was qi energy flows through everything.

Reike is a healing technique which was invented in the late 18'00's, this doesnt mean that it is not based on a more ancient tradition, does this invalidate the practice and results?

Tom