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Stones Forum >> The mystery of the stone circles and avenues of Shilstone Common
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The mystery of the stone circles and avenues of Shilstone Common |
Andy B
Joined:
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from Surrey, UK
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|  Posted 03-07-2011 at 18:10
Dave Parks (davep) writes:
I have just completed a page on Spinsters Rock for my site Dartmoor Walks http://www.dartmoorwalks.org.uk
One page I have written is perhaps a bit of an oddity for my site because it includes an in depth discussion of a site on Shilstone Common which no longer exists, so visiting won't be possible by
public transport - not until Devon County Council sponsors a publicly available time machine!
The question is whether the sketch by Swete is of stone circles or of cairn circles. I have no expertise in archaeology and I would love a second opinion from anyone who might be interested. See the
"The mystery of the stone circles and avenues of Shilstone Common" on the Spinsters Rock page:
http://www.dartmoorwalks.org.uk/site/spinsters.html
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davep
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| Posted 06-07-2011 at 00:09
Andy, thanks for posting this. Perhaps a little more explanation would be useful.
There are a few "ceremonial complexes" on Dartmoor which have combinations of more than one type of monument e.g. may include two or more significant examples of the following; stone rows, stone circles, cairns. Examples include Merrivale (stone circle, stone rows), Shovel Down (multiple double rows, stone circle), Drizzlecombe (no stone circle but multiple stone rows in association with cairns).
It is claimed that there once existed such a complex on Shilstone Common but it was totally robbed out by 1865. This claimed site is of interest not just because it might have been another ceremonial complex but because it would have been associated with the nearby Neolithic Spinsters Rock. The essence of my article is that R.H. Worth (who appears to have made the last authoritative comments on the site) was very dismissive of claims for the site - particulalry of the more grandiose plan of the site made by Grey (in 1838) that nobody else witnessed - but Worth would probably not have seen the sketches of a double circle made by Swete in 1789 (only published as far as I can tell in 1999).
Swete describes the structure, thus:
Quote:
| "vallum which on the outer part declines and is about 4 feet high tho' the greater part of the stones which were erected on the top of the mound are gone and those that remain are deep sunk in the ground yet there are as yet sufficient, clearly to make out the whole round of the circle, the diameter of which (for it is exactly circular) is 31 paces". (Note: A Vallum is a large earthwork). |
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My interpretation is that this is circles around a mound - hence cairn circles (not stone circles) - although they would have been particularly large for Dartmoor.
I list all the textual references to the site that I can find. I have since become aware of another article "Bronze Age Stone Monuments of Dartmoor" by J. W. Brailsford (Antiquity Volume: 12 Number: 48 Page: 444–463 published 1938) which I have not yet been able to get hold of. This predates Worth's comments and I doubt it adds anything.
I would welcome any thoughts on these circles. Good evidence that somethig did indeed exist? What were they?
Dave P
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-07-06 00:10 ]
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-07-06 00:30 ]
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davep
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| Posted 08-08-2011 at 02:21
FYI. The premise for my article, refered to earlier, turns out to be wrong - my revelation about the site was around 80 years late!It turns out that the sketch by Swete was published in 1928 by Major F.C. Turner who, having seen Swete's original manuscript with the sketch of "prehistoric circles" and compared it with Grey's map, decided to investigate the site. He found evidence of the circles although he suggests that Swete's circles and Grey's circles may not be the same. I'm still researching this but in the meantime I have updated my web page with this:
COMMENT: The author has just found the following: In 1928 in Devon Notes & Queries Vol 15 there is a short piece by F.C. Tyler referring to having just seen the original manuscript by Swete including the sketch of the circles and announcing his intentions to investigate the site. In 1930 in the T.D.A. Vol. 62 the outcome of these investigations were published. Much of the remains could still be located with some digging and one of the circles and the probable remains of the other were discovered with a pit of charcoal within one of the circles. The article that follows will be updated shortly to reflect this new information.
Perhaps I should add that the Brailsford, J. W. 'Bronze Age Stone Monuments of Dartmoor' Antiquity Volume: 12 article that I had been concerned about added nothing. On the other hand I entirely missed the reference to Tyler's work in the easily accessible Butler Vol. 5 (Chapter on Stones Rows) - impossible to find using the index! Mea Culpa! Just goes to show - you can do a vast amount of research and miss the obvious!!! Hey ho - I'm no expert.
PS. In 1946 in Stray notes on the Teign Valley (in TDA Vol. 78 ), R.H. Worth stated "It has long seemed to me that the time was overdue for someone in the interests of archaeology, to deal in an even more summary manner with Rev. W. Grey's 'discovery'". After his death in 1950 the collection of his writings Worth's Dartmoor was published in 1953 with this article appearing as Appendix VI. In 1930 R.H Worth was the President of the Devonshire Association and he wrote the presedential address that appears in the same edition that published Tyler's work i.e. T.D.A Vol. 62. So surely Worth must have seen it? Maybe the article was written long before it was published with the war years prolonging its eventual appearance - either way unfortunately there was no mention of Tyler's work.
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-08-08 02:37 ]
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hewpop
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| Posted 08-08-2011 at 10:01
davep
I don’t see any reference in your Spinsters Rock article, to William Chapple. If at all possible, try and find a copy of the short lived magazine “Wisht Maen” Devon Earth Mysteries . No 3. August 1994, where I wrote about his description and investigation of the dolmen written in 1779. His second visit on the 20th August.1777, .....”fully equiped with plane table and compass to complete his work.”.......”variation at Exeter 13 Mar 1717, 13 deg 20 min W, 20 Aug 1777 23 deg 35 min W”....... and there the book ends abruptly, nothing else. There is no other copy known, not even in the British Museum. He died in 1780.
The copy I saw was in the Exeter and Devon Record Office. He describes the stones of the dolmen, and his measurements refer to a plan he made, but it is not present in the book. He also deduces it was ..... “not primarily intended as a religious structure or sepulchre, but was partly designed for Sciatherical purposes and in general the apparatus of an Astronomical Observatory............”
The Wisht Maen article also contains a map by Tyler, which covers a greater area of the site at Shilstone moor than Grey’s, but the positions of the supposed circles do not match up.
I enjoyed your site. Thank you
Hugh Franklin
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Runemage
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| Posted 08-08-2011 at 10:47
'Sciatherical' - Pertaining to a measurement of time by shadows, or belonging to a sundial.
For everyone else who didn't know 
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davep
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| Posted 08-08-2011 at 13:33
Thanks, Hugh - I will check it out!
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hewpop
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| Posted 08-08-2011 at 17:54
Sorry Dave, I forgot the references :-
Chapple, William. 'Description and Exegesis of the Drewsteignton Cromlech.'. Exeter 1779
Tyler, Major F.C. 'The Stone remains in Drewsteinton'. Transactions of the Devon Association.1930.
Good luck, Hugh.
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davep
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| Posted 09-08-2011 at 00:57
Thanks Hugh. I have a photocopy of the Tyler article already -I'm trying to work out whether or not it is out of copyright. It is 80 years old - but presumably the author may have still been alive less than 70 years ago. *
Presumably the William Chapple document is a manuscript rather than a book. I did look into it a few months back - but I assumed that as it is listed as "never published" that it doesn't exist - clearly it does! It is listed on the library database:
http://www.devon.gov.uk/localstudies/42657/26.html&s=yFTKrquhFGI
BTW - the Wisht maen : Devon earth mysteries magazine Vols 1 to 5 that you mention are also held in the Westcountry Studies Library (WSL). See:
http://www.devon.gov.uk/localstudies/134761/1.html&s=vM5pUInG9pq
Anyway - thanks for the helpful comments - I will pop down the WSL in next few days and check these out.
*PS. He died in September 1939 - so it is presumably out of copyright.
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-08-09 01:03 ]
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davep
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| Posted 07-09-2011 at 01:02
Just found this: "In 2010, Tim Wilkinson carried out a geophysical investigation, followed by excavation of some trial pits on 5th - 9th Aug 2010.", see:
Spinster's Rock OSGR SX 7010 9080
I spent some time digging through Tyler's original report in the Transactions of the Devonshire Association and it would seem that the consensus in later discussion is that it is all very dubious - but Tyler gives a very specific description of an excavation of a pit found in what he thought was one of the circles which is almost identical to descriptions of excavations of cairn circles with bell shaped pits as described in reports of the Dartmoor Barrow Committee, see:
Pit In Stannon Botton Cairn (21st Report of the Barrow committee)
There are big problems with Tyler's report - a lot of it is by necessity speculative in trying to make sense of the unverified and contradictory reports of eighteenth and nineteenth century accounts.
Worth dismissed this site - but clearly Tyler found something.
Does anyone know anything more about this? Where can details of Wilkinson's investigations be found?
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-09-07 04:21 ]
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davep
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| Posted 14-10-2011 at 01:39
Butler wrote on this subject:
Quote:
| There may have been one or more stone rows in the fields surrounding Drewsteignton Cromlech, a controversial site first mentioned by Chapple (1750) and periodically re-assessed in the literature over the last two and a half centuries 'which for complication and incomprehensibility would be unique' according to R.H. Worth, a remark applying equally well to the coverage it has since received. |
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I hope I have not added to the "complication and incomprehensibility" but this is my take on Tyler's investigations, unfortunately it is inevitably complicated and speculative.
A Reappraisal of Tyler's The Stone Remains in Drewsteignton
[ This message was edited by: davep on 2011-10-14 01:40 ]
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hewpop
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| Posted 14-10-2011 at 17:19
Thank you Dave, an excellent piece of detective work. I have often wanted to go back to the area, as I used to live in Hittisleigh, and frequently looked around the site and fields at Shilstone. If I remember correctly, as one turns off the road at the end of Venton straight to go up the winding hill to Spinster’s Rock, in the field to the left and close up against the roadside hedge, there used to be a whole mass and jumble of large boulders. I never got around to examining them closely, but often thought they might have been from any circles or avenues in the fields above, and had been pushed downhill as the easiest way to clear them from the fields. Maybe worth a look sometime for you, I’m too old and rickety now for any field work ! Hugh.
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