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demotic society in the later Neolithic ? |
howar
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|  Posted 18-09-2010 at 22:32
in tonight's talk Colin Renfrew argued for a demotic ('of the people') social organisation in the later Neolithic, as distinct from the purely egalitarian phase earliy on, being responsible for the great monuments. But he wasn't sure what form this took. Any ideas ?
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tiompan
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|  Posted 18-09-2010 at 23:18
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On 2010-09-18 22:32, howar wrote:
in tonight's talk Colin Renfrew argued for a demotic ('of the people') social organisation in the later Neolithic, as distinct from the purely egalitarian phase earliy on, being responsible for the great monuments. But he wasn't sure what form this took. Any ideas ?
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Did he say why he believed the monument building society was demotic ? It's certainly reasonable some European cemeteries show evidence of deeply divided societies e.g. Varna where the grave goods show a disparity which ranges from large amounts of gold to nothing and everything in between .Closer to home and possibly more salient is the info retrieved from bone and teeth e.g. at Ty Isaf we find a lack of caries low tooth loss and development of enamel yet at Penywyrlodand Pipton which is not too far and and roughly the same period the opposite applies .This suggests the possibility of a highly differentiated society but they are always capable of collective action .
George
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howar
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 09:31
As far as I can recollect his idea came purely from pondering how the great monuments worldwide (e.g. aceramic Peru) could have been produced in a non-hierarchical society
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On 2010-09-18 23:18, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-18 22:32, howar wrote:
in tonight's talk Colin Renfrew argued for a demotic ('of the people') social organisation in the later Neolithic, as distinct from the purely egalitarian phase earliy on, being responsible for the great monuments. But he wasn't sure what form this took. Any ideas ?
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Did he say why he believed the monument building society was demotic ? It's certainly reasonable some European cemeteries show evidence of deeply divided societies e.g. Varna where the grave goods show a disparity which ranges from large amounts of gold to nothing and everything in between .Closer to home and possibly more salient is the info retrieved from bone and teeth e.g. at Ty Isaf we find a lack of caries low tooth loss and development of enamel yet at Penywyrlodand Pipton which is not too far and and roughly the same period the opposite applies .This suggests the possibility of a highly differentiated society but they are always capable of collective action .
George
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[ This message was edited by: howar on 2010-09-19 09:32 ]
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 11:00
Ty Isaf is in the bottom of a deep valley, surrounded by high hills all around, whereas Pipton and Penyrwrlod are both fairly elevated and have open vistas to the nearby mountains and beyond. Would this have any bearing on the differences.
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 11:09
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On 2010-09-19 11:00, cerrig wrote:
Ty Isaf is in the bottom of a deep valley, surrounded by high hills all around, whereas Pipton and Penyrwrlod are both fairly elevated and have open vistas to the nearby mountains and beyond. Would this have any bearing on the differences.
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It shouldn't impact on the diet of the individuals deposited .
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 11:52
Maybe the siting of each one was related to status .
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 12:44
Surely we would need to know that different practises were occurring at exactly the same time to make assumptions about differences within groups.
There is a fairly loose dating structure for most archaeological sites and modern practises have often proved that changes in fashion, status, wealth and diet can occur literally overnight.
If you were to make the comparison with the Victorian era and looked at what we see and ignore the documentary evidence it would be very hard to see how and why certain groups of people suddenly began burials in suburban cemeteries whilst others were buried in Churchyards and equally following cremation rituals.
The presence of differing diet and health within populations is surely the norm in many areas of the world today and it is often found that groups with differing racial or belief systems will be buried separately within a locality.
This still leaves the probability that the megalithic builders were not the only group within societies and indeed may represent a very small minority that just happens to have left a near permanent legacy in stone.
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 13:35
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On 2010-09-19 11:52, cerrig wrote:
Maybe the siting of each one was related to status .
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Possibly , but it is one of the few pointers we have at the moment, in relation to diet =hierarchy and ultimately the real unknown, to what extent the society was differentiated .
George
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 14:08
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On 2010-09-19 12:44, frogcottage42 wrote:
Surely we would need to know that different practises were occurring at exactly the same time to make assumptions about differences within groups.
There is a fairly loose dating structure for most archaeological sites and modern practises have often proved that changes in fashion, status, wealth and diet can occur literally overnight.
If you were to make the comparison with the Victorian era and looked at what we see and ignore the documentary evidence it would be very hard to see how and why certain groups of people suddenly began burials in suburban cemeteries whilst others were buried in Churchyards and equally following cremation rituals.
The presence of differing diet and health within populations is surely the norm in many areas of the world today and it is often found that groups with differing racial or belief systems will be buried separately within a locality.
This still leaves the probability that the megalithic builders were not the only group within societies and indeed may represent a very small minority that just happens to have left a near permanent legacy in stone.
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The problem was “what form did the demotic organisation take ?” . Where can we start to answer that without documentary evidence of the historic period ? The huge disparities of grave goods at Varna , one of only 43 graves contained 1500g of gold , whilst others had no grave goods , parsimoniously suggests a highly differentiated society .
The Welsh examples (despite the spelling ) were those of similar monuments and time period so at least had something in common in that they were megalith builders although that does not mean the individuals in the monuments were related to the builders but there is little else to go on .
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 16:42
I think the crux of the issue is that where we have so little to go on we should generally view these things as speculation and not try to read more into a situation that we do not understand than is reasonable.
That said, the more theories that are thrown about the more chance of tripping over a good one... just as long as they do not become accepted without question but I suspect that would never happen on the portal!
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 17:12
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On 2010-09-19 16:42, frogcottage42 wrote:
I think the crux of the issue is that where we have so little to go on we should generally view these things as speculation and not try to read more into a situation that we do not understand than is reasonable.
That said, the more theories that are thrown about the more chance of tripping over a good one... just as long as they do not become accepted without question but I suspect that would never happen on the portal!
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It was never suggested as more than speculation , Howar was looking for suggestions to support something that Colin Renfrew was stuck on as he , obviously having thought about it and suggested , had little to go on . But the little evidence we do have to go on does suggest the likelihood of a differentiated society rather than an egalitarian one .
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-19 17:22 ]
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-19 17:26 ]
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 18:45
The reason I mentioned the different outlooks of the monuments was that Ty Isaf is in a very different place than the others. In fact it's the only one I know of that is hidden away in a valley like it is. The only view is up or down the valley, north or south, whereas the others are very open. It's probably the only passage mound/tomb in the Black mountains that doesn't have a view of the mountains themselves. Come to think of it, it's the only one that is contained within the mountains, all the others are on the outskirts.
So you have an anomolous monument with anomolous occupants. Don't tell me there is no connection.
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 18:56
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On 2010-09-19 18:45, cerrig wrote:
The reason I mentioned the different outlooks of the monuments was that Ty Isaf is in a very different place than the others. In fact it's the only one I know of that is hidden away in a valley like it is. The only view is up or down the valley, north or south, whereas the others are very open. It's probably the only passage mound/tomb in the Black mountains that doesn't have a view of the mountains themselves. Come to think of it, it's the only one that is contained within the mountains, all the others are on the outskirts.
So you have an anomolous monument with anomolous occupants. Don't tell me there is no connection.
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Could be , but we only have the three for comparison .
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 20:00
There are several more in the Black mountains group George. Whether they have all been excavated properly I don't know.
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 20:09
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On 2010-09-19 20:00, cerrig wrote:
There are several more in the Black mountains group George. Whether they have all been excavated properly I don't know.
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I believe that there were only the three that had the results from teeth .btw Ty Isaf is a good example of the equinox being quite a way from east and west , due to the hills it's close to 103 and 257 degreees from the site .Not suggesting that there is an alignment but if there were .....
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 19-09-2010 at 20:43
I will try and check on that this week George, but from memory it would be a bit of a neck strain to see anything.
Incidentally, a bit off topic, but I found what can only be a stone based long house today. Right next to a stream, as is the norm in the Beacons. About 11 paces by 6 paces. There is only the wall base left, and the stones look quite regular . The corner stones especially are definitely square shaped.
There is no record on Coflein, so I'm assuming it's a new find. There are other long houses in the next valley, but not within a couple of miles. I'm not sure of the date as the coflein info is a bit vague on the others. Could it be prehistoric, or more recent.
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cerrig
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| Posted 04-10-2010 at 22:23
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On 2010-09-19 20:09, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:00, cerrig wrote:
There are several more in the Black mountains group George. Whether they have all been excavated properly I don't know.
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I believe that there were only the three that had the results from teeth .btw Ty Isaf is a good example of the equinox being quite a way from east and west , due to the hills it's close to 103 and 257 degreees from the site .Not suggesting that there is an alignment but if there were .....
George
[/quote]George
I paid a visit to Ty Isaf today, and I think you may be onto something with the Eastern sightline. It would appear to be pointing at one of the peaks of the Black mountains. I'm not sure which one yet, but I'll check it out.
ps; did you know about the dogs before tempting me with this one.  
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tiompan
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| Posted 04-10-2010 at 22:50
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On 2010-10-04 22:23, cerrig wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:09, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-19 20:00, cerrig wrote:
There are several more in the Black mountains group George. Whether they have all been excavated properly I don't know.
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I believe that there were only the three that had the results from teeth .btw Ty Isaf is a good example of the equinox being quite a way from east and west , due to the hills it's close to 103 and 257 degreees from the site .Not suggesting that there is an alignment but if there were .....
George
[/quote]George
I paid a visit to Ty Isaf today, and I think you may be onto something with the Eastern sightline. It would appear to be pointing at one of the peaks of the Black mountains. I'm not sure which one yet, but I'll check it out.
ps; did you know about the dogs before tempting me with this one.
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Forgot to mention the biscuits .
No I wasn't suggesting an aligment Andrew the equinox is about 2 degrees north of the highest point of Myndd Lysiau .It was more to point out that the equinox can be a long way from 90 or 270 degrees when you have a site that is in a narrow deep valley .Can't remember what the original thread was about though .
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 04-10-2010 at 23:11
I see from the site page for Ty Isaf that the Captain has met the dogs. I can now confirm that they have changed tactics. Instead of chasing you off the mound, they now go and sit by your car, and wait for you to come back, and then say hello.
I went from there to ffostyll chambered cairns, where I had a run in with a cow.
Give me the open moorland and the ponies anyday.
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