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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Thoughts on stone circles
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Thoughts on stone circles |
RoyG
Joined:
16-09-2010
Messages: 18
from Cornwall
 OFF-Line
|  Posted 20-10-2010 at 08:24
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2638
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| Posted 20-10-2010 at 08:36
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
[/quote]
I don't have a clue . And of course it could all be bollocks .
George
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RoyG
Joined:
16-09-2010
Messages: 18
from Cornwall
OFF-Line
| Posted 20-10-2010 at 08:44
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
[/quote]
I don't have a clue . And of course it could all be bollocks .
George
[/quote]
LOL
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2638
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| Posted 20-10-2010 at 09:42
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 08:44, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:36, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:24, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:02, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 03:42, cerrig wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122206.htm
An interesting article on passageway orientations.
|
|
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
[/quote]
I don't have a clue . And of course it could all be bollocks .
George
[/quote]
LOL
[/quote]
Sorry that was a bit glib and not very helpful . What I was getting at was that there are 500 jaettestuer /Danish passage graves (Jorgen Jensen suggests there was originally 40,000 megalithic graves ) .Michael Hoskin has recorded over a further thousand in the southern Europe . When you look at the azimuths and resulting declinations for each region and also the whole corpus there are no peaks at what is considered to be the major astronmical events i.e. standstills ,solstices ,equinoxes etc ,the only thing that does stand out is that the vast majority do have sunlight entering the passage sometime in the year .The figures bear out that that at least was important for the builders . There seems litle doubt due to the light box that the Newgrange passage orientation was intentionally aligned on the solstice .There are others and there will be those that are to be expected to do so by chance but they are a small fraction of the total . Some fit the Clausen hypothesis ,there are others in Iberia that have also been noted , I noticed West Kennet also fits but with even greater salience as the build date (which is as accurate as we have for such a monument )and passage orientation coincides with the same type of event as mentioned by Clausen but also the moon that night was also in conjunction with Saturn and Jupiter , one or the other happens cyclically but both together seems very uncommon ( I have never managed to discover from astronomers just how rare ). But it still could be all bollocks .
George
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RoyG
Joined:
16-09-2010
Messages: 18
from Cornwall
OFF-Line
| Posted 20-10-2010 at 10:09
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 09:42, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:44, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:36, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:24, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:02, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 03:42, cerrig wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122206.htm
An interesting article on passageway orientations.
|
|
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
[/quote]
I don't have a clue . And of course it could all be bollocks .
George
[/quote]
LOL
[/quote]
Sorry that was a bit glib and not very helpful . What I was getting at was that there are 500 jaettestuer /Danish passage graves (Jorgen Jensen suggests there was originally 40,000 megalithic graves ) .Michael Hoskin has recorded over a further thousand in the southern Europe . When you look at the azimuths and resulting declinations for each region and also the whole corpus there are no peaks at what is considered to be the major astronmical events i.e. standstills ,solstices ,equinoxes etc ,the only thing that does stand out is that the vast majority do have sunlight entering the passage sometime in the year .The figures bear out that that at least was important for the builders . There seems litle doubt due to the light box that the Newgrange passage orientation was intentionally aligned on the solstice .There are others and there will be those that are to be expected to do so by chance but they are a small fraction of the total . Some fit the Clausen hypothesis ,there are others in Iberia that have also been noted , I noticed West Kennet also fits but with even greater salience as the build date (which is as accurate as we have for such a monument )and passage orientation coincides with the same type of event as mentioned by Clausen but also the moon that night was also in conjunction with Saturn and Jupiter , one or the other happens cyclically but both together seems very uncommon ( I have never managed to discover from astronomers just how rare ). But it still could be all bollocks .
George
[/quote]
Your first reply was more entertaining George!!! Yes the magnificant passage grave at La Hougie Bie in my country of birth Jersey is another where sunlight enters the passageway and main chamber and great play is made of it, but rather like ley-lines pretty much everything seems to line up with something somewhere doesn't it if you look hard enough. We build our individual modern houses facing the way best to capture the maximum sunlight don't we so things may not have changed that much. It is believed that chambered passage graves such as the WKLB were built as 'houses for the dead' but why not put a twist on that and suggest a pre-use where they were really built as houses for the living first that were roofed in a more traditional way with the larger side chambers being used as bedrooms/storeage room and the main chamber a living room?
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2638
OFF-Line
| Posted 20-10-2010 at 11:29
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 10:09, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 09:42, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:44, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:36, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:24, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 08:02, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 03:42, cerrig wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218122206.htm
An interesting article on passageway orientations.
|
|
This is the same thinking behind the possible West Kenent Long Barrow orientation .
George
[/quote]
So what did it actually achieve? What was the reasoning behind it other than the obvious? Did it 'help' the dead in their Afterlife if indeed it was an afterlife thing? Very intriguing.
[/quote]
I don't have a clue . And of course it could all be bollocks .
George
[/quote]
LOL
[/quote]
Sorry that was a bit glib and not very helpful . What I was getting at was that there are 500 jaettestuer /Danish passage graves (Jorgen Jensen suggests there was originally 40,000 megalithic graves ) .Michael Hoskin has recorded over a further thousand in the southern Europe . When you look at the azimuths and resulting declinations for each region and also the whole corpus there are no peaks at what is considered to be the major astronmical events i.e. standstills ,solstices ,equinoxes etc ,the only thing that does stand out is that the vast majority do have sunlight entering the passage sometime in the year .The figures bear out that that at least was important for the builders . There seems litle doubt due to the light box that the Newgrange passage orientation was intentionally aligned on the solstice .There are others and there will be those that are to be expected to do so by chance but they are a small fraction of the total . Some fit the Clausen hypothesis ,there are others in Iberia that have also been noted , I noticed West Kennet also fits but with even greater salience as the build date (which is as accurate as we have for such a monument )and passage orientation coincides with the same type of event as mentioned by Clausen but also the moon that night was also in conjunction with Saturn and Jupiter , one or the other happens cyclically but both together seems very uncommon ( I have never managed to discover from astronomers just how rare ). But it still could be all bollocks .
George
[/quote]
Your first reply was more entertaining George!!! Yes the magnificant passage grave at La Hougie Bie in my country of birth Jersey is another where sunlight enters the passageway and main chamber and great play is made of it, but rather like ley-lines pretty much everything seems to line up with something somewhere doesn't it if you look hard enough. We build our individual modern houses facing the way best to capture the maximum sunlight don't we so things may not have changed that much.
[/quote]
My home like millions of others is south facing to get the maximum amount of sun , consequently it might appear to be to be oriented on the equinox which we know was not hte case . I must admit to giving le Hougue Bie the benefit of the doubt but then again some passage graves are going to be oriented on the equinox by chance , just as there are plenty that are east facing that are not .As the sun shines in these monumnets for quite a few days either side of the main astro events particularly at solstices there is a quite a leeway for choice .When looking at eastern orientations archaeoastronomers have the options of choosing two solstices, two cross quarter days , an equinox two major standstills and two minor standstills as possible orienations Nine choices which are given at least a couple of degrees either side to allow for being "close " .In the case of Jersey there is approx a hundred degrees of horizon between the the major events, you have a pretty good chance of hitting of one of those and it is difficult to argue against those that are not quite right .It's almost a win win situation for those that suggest they are aligned on a particular event .If all else fails you can then turn to the stars .
George
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RoyG
Joined:
16-09-2010
Messages: 18
from Cornwall
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| Posted 20-10-2010 at 13:13
My home like millions of others is south facing to get the maximum amount of sun , consequently it might appear to be to be oriented on the equinox which we know was not hte case . I must admit to giving le Hougue Bie the benefit of the doubt but then again some passage graves are going to be oriented on the equinox by chance , just as there are plenty that are east facing that are not .As the sun shines in these monumnets for quite a few days either side of the main astro events particularly at solstices there is a quite a leeway for choice .When looking at eastern orientations archaeoastronomers have the options of choosing two solstices, two cross quarter days , an equinox two major standstills and two minor standstills as possible orienations Nine choices which are given at least a couple of degrees either side to allow for being "close " .In the case of Jersey there is approx a hundred degrees of horizon between the the major events, you have a pretty good chance of hitting of one of those and it is difficult to argue against those that are not quite right .It's almost a win win situation for those that suggest they are aligned on a particular event .If all else fails you can then turn to the stars .
George
[/quote]
Even with my very limited knowledge of solstices and equinox's even I can see that the possibilities of something hitting the button pretty high so I think you summed that up rather nicely...unless someone here feels differently about it that is!
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sem
Joined:
12-11-2003
Messages: 1704
from Bridgend,S.Wales
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| Posted 20-10-2010 at 18:55
RoyG and Tiompan
Does anyone know of any statistical studies on the orientation of passage graves by area (clan, tribal or geographical), period (erecting or closing), terrain-type plus numerous other factors (eg the builder's birthday)?
Sorry I was being flippant there, but I think all the above played their part.
As has been said, there are multiple points that could be aimed at, but the one that continues to mystify me are moon standstills. Solstices, Equinoxes etc are seen regularly but the 18.6yr moon cycle involves some serious remembering. In addition, unlike full moons etc being good for tides or hunting or Solstices etc for seasons, they seem to have no practical applications.
The majority of people would only see (weather permitting) one of these in their life, so my only thought is that they were a social thing. A once in a lifetime experience!
Father - Look son (or daughter). The last time the moon was in that position your grandfather was alive. He told me about this and said I should look upon it once and share the knowledge with you.
Son - So you see this once and then die?
Father - Well, not immediately, but I will not live to see another.
Son - Has anyone seen more than one?
Father - 'Tis rumoured the Shaman has seen 2 before this and some of your ancestors may have seen 2 in their whole life.
Son - Gee Dad, that's awfully sad.
Father - Why son? One view of this is all most of us mortals are allowed before we move to the world of the anscestors.
Son - Wee..ll Dad. If I can see only one moon standstill in my lifetime, how come I'll get to see at least 10 last-ever tours by The Rolling Stones?
Father - Ask the ancestors my son, ask the ancestors.
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2638
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| Posted 20-10-2010 at 19:12
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 18:55, sem wrote:
RoyG and Tiompan
Does anyone know of any statistical studies on the orientation of passage graves by area (clan, tribal or geographical), period (erecting or closing), terrain-type plus numerous other factors (eg the builder's birthday)?
Sorry I was being flippant there, but I think all the above played their part.
As has been said, there are multiple points that could be aimed at, but the one that continues to mystify me are moon standstills. Solstices, Equinoxes etc are seen regularly but the 18.6yr moon cycle involves some serious remembering. In addition, unlike full moons etc being good for tides or hunting or Solstices etc for seasons, they seem to have no practical applications.
The majority of people would only see (weather permitting) one of these in their life, so my only thought is that they were a social thing. A once in a lifetime experience!
|
|
Sem , Hoskin analysed his findings by area and collectively and noted regional differences .Probably the most stiking was that the passages in Languedoc ,Provence and the Balearics faced to the west while the others tended to be easterly , he believed this was due to the topography . No one area showed any preference for a any major astro event .The only other notable point was that the vast majority would ahve the sun shine in the passage on some of the year although that might be when it wasn't on the horizon .i.e. midday or mid morning /afternoon .The standstill is an odd one ,particularly the minor .There is a good chance that the punter may never see it as it could ahppen in daylight ,in cloud ,when the moon's phase is hardly visible and even worse when it is below the horizon but nevertheless a large majority of RSC 's are oriented to that part of the horizon , it's too much to be coincidence maybe we are misreading or missing something .
George
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RoyG
Joined:
16-09-2010
Messages: 18
from Cornwall
OFF-Line
| Posted 20-10-2010 at 19:36
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 19:12, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 18:55, sem wrote:
RoyG and Tiompan
Does anyone know of any statistical studies on the orientation of passage graves by area (clan, tribal or geographical), period (erecting or closing), terrain-type plus numerous other factors (eg the builder's birthday)?
Sorry I was being flippant there, but I think all the above played their part.
As has been said, there are multiple points that could be aimed at, but the one that continues to mystify me are moon standstills. Solstices, Equinoxes etc are seen regularly but the 18.6yr moon cycle involves some serious remembering. In addition, unlike full moons etc being good for tides or hunting or Solstices etc for seasons, they seem to have no practical applications.
The majority of people would only see (weather permitting) one of these in their life, so my only thought is that they were a social thing. A once in a lifetime experience!
|
|
Sem , Hoskin analysed his findings by area and collectively and noted regional differences .Probably the most stiking was that the passages in Languedoc ,Provence and the Balearics faced to the west while the others tended to be easterly , he believed this was due to the topography . No one area showed any preference for a any major astro event .The only other notable point was that the vast majority would ahve the sun shine in the passage on some of the year although that might be when it wasn't on the horizon .i.e. midday or mid morning /afternoon .The standstill is an odd one ,particularly the minor .There is a good chance that the punter may never see it as it could ahppen in daylight ,in cloud ,when the moon's phase is hardly visible and even worse when it is below the horizon but nevertheless a large majority of RSC 's are oriented to that part of the horizon , it's too much to be coincidence maybe we are misreading or missing something .
George
[/quote]
I think possibly what we are missing here is that the passage graves were being built for the dead (supposedly) by the living who decided on the orientation, so therefore what is it the dead were supposed to gain out of it...not just a decent view of the sun or the stars surely!
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tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2638
OFF-Line
| Posted 20-10-2010 at 20:06
Quote:
|
On 2010-10-20 19:36, RoyG wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 19:12, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-10-20 18:55, sem wrote:
RoyG and Tiompan
Does anyone know of any statistical studies on the orientation of passage graves by area (clan, tribal or geographical), period (erecting or closing), terrain-type plus numerous other factors (eg the builder's birthday)?
Sorry I was being flippant there, but I think all the above played their part.
As has been said, there are multiple points that could be aimed at, but the one that continues to mystify me are moon standstills. Solstices, Equinoxes etc are seen regularly but the 18.6yr moon cycle involves some serious remembering. In addition, unlike full moons etc being good for tides or hunting or Solstices etc for seasons, they seem to have no practical applications.
The majority of people would only see (weather permitting) one of these in their life, so my only thought is that they were a social thing. A once in a lifetime experience!
|
|
Sem , Hoskin analysed his findings by area and collectively and noted regional differences .Probably the most stiking was that the passages in Languedoc ,Provence and the Balearics faced to the west while the others tended to be easterly , he believed this was due to the topography . No one area showed any preference for a any major astro event .The only other notable point was that the vast majority would ahve the sun shine in the passage on some of the year although that might be when it wasn't on the horizon .i.e. midday or mid morning /afternoon .The standstill is an odd one ,particularly the minor .There is a good chance that the punter may never see it as it could ahppen in daylight ,in cloud ,when the moon's phase is hardly visible and even worse when it is below the horizon but nevertheless a large majority of RSC 's are oriented to that part of the horizon , it's too much to be coincidence maybe we are misreading or missing something .
George
[/quote]
I think possibly what we are missing here is that the passage graves were being built for the dead (supposedly) by the living who decided on the orientation, so therefore what is it the dead were supposed to gain out of it...not just a decent view of the sun or the stars surely!
[/quote]
Unlike the near eastern examples ,without text , we can only guess at the possible cosmology of the builders .The eastern cosmology was capable of big change and it seems likely there were similar changes here . Fleshing out the possible suspects of light , after-life , regeneration , the "west ", spirit , ,fertility ,gods etc from the architecture , orientation and remains is going to tell us more about the interpreter and their interests than the subject , in my view . There are also the cases with no remains or only animal remains which opens up other possibilities . Discovering more about the deposits ,which is now possible ,seems our best hope of gaining a better understanding imo .
George
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