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Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Equinox
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Equinox |
cerrig
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|  Posted 10-09-2010 at 23:01
I have noticed that this years Equinox also has a full moon on the same day. Does anyone have any plans to try and photograph this rare event, and if so, how do you propose to do it.
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 11-09-2010 at 18:40
Nice one. I guess anywhere with east and west views of the horizon would be good.
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cerrig
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| Posted 11-09-2010 at 20:40
As it turns out, the Sun and the full Moon both rise and set in the same place, on this one day. I've looked at the USNO website, and it doesn't happen again for a very long time.
There is also a full moon on the Winter Solstice this year, with a lunar eclipse .
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tiompan
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| Posted 11-09-2010 at 21:03
If conditions are good we should get a " red moon " as sun sets and moon rises .WKLB might be the place to get a pic as within the decade of the suggested build date a similar event happened which coincided with the alignmnet of the barrow plus Saturn and Jupiter were in conjunction with the moon that night , an event that I have never managed to discover the rarity value of .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-11 21:05 ]
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cerrig
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| Posted 11-09-2010 at 21:59
George, would you happen to know at what point in the moons cycle that occurred. I'm talking about the standstill cycle. The reason I'm curious is because we are about 1/2 way between major and minor standstills, which means the range of the moon's rise/set is almost a match with the sun this year.
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tiompan
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| Posted 11-09-2010 at 22:34
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On 2010-09-11 21:59, cerrig wrote:
George, would you happen to know at what point in the moons cycle that occurred. I'm talking about the standstill cycle. The reason I'm curious is because we are about 1/2 way between major and minor standstills, which means the range of the moon's rise/set is almost a match with the sun this year.
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Good point Andrew , no I don't know ,I'll try to find out . The WKLB example was what some call a "Neolithic moon " in that it is the first full moon closest to the equinox , not on the equinox .There are a few ,mostly Iberian possible alignments on that event , like WKLB they are not aligned on the equinox .Wklb is closer to 85 degrees . Of course it could all be bollocks but the fact that we do have good dates for the possible build i.e. 3670 -3635 cal BC and the event was 3640 BC plus the conjunction with Jupiter and Saturn too ,if nothing else it's worth mentioning . It must be pretty close to half between standstills as 85 is nearly midway between 40 and 141 degrees the two approx azis for the standstill as that latitude .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-11 22:58 ]
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sem
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 00:49
Not sure if this will work, but..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaTNFZ8g--M&feature=related
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sem
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 00:55
Hi Cerrig
BABAS of the world unite, those near Cerrig Duon are PINK!
Sem
PS Does BABAS stand for Beacons Archaeologists Bugger All Sheep?
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cerrig
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 06:58
Quote:
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On 2010-09-11 22:34, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-11 21:59, cerrig wrote:
George, would you happen to know at what point in the moons cycle that occurred. I'm talking about the standstill cycle. The reason I'm curious is because we are about 1/2 way between major and minor standstills, which means the range of the moon's rise/set is almost a match with the sun this year.
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Good point Andrew , no I don't know ,I'll try to find out . The WKLB example was what some call a "Neolithic moon " in that it is the first full moon closest to the equinox , not on the equinox .There are a few ,mostly Iberian possible alignments on that event , like WKLB they are not aligned on the equinox .Wklb is closer to 85 degrees . Of course it could all be bollocks but the fact that we do have good dates for the possible build i.e. 3670 -3635 cal BC and the event was 3640 BC plus the conjunction with Jupiter and Saturn too ,if nothing else it's worth mentioning . It must be pretty close to half between standstills as 85 is nearly midway between 40 and 141 degrees the two approx azis for the standstill as that latitude .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-11 22:58 ]
[/quote]George, I was thinking more along the lines of a time scale . The movements of the moon is a little complex, but I think my understanding is somewhere close . Put me straight if I've got this a bit skewiff.
The last lunar standstill was in 2006, so it will be just over 9 years till the next one, or 2015. So we are now coming up to 1/2 way between them. The extremes of the moons AZ's varies from about 10 degrees outside at the major standstill, and 10 degrees inside at the minor standstill, relative to the sun's extremes(amount dependant on latitude). The moons extremes would then move from outside, at the major standstill, to inside the sun's extremes at the minor standstill over the 9.3 years of the cycle, and then back again to complete the full 18.6 year cycle, and so on. At some point in this cycle the moons extremes will closely match those of the sun, and we are at that point now. So at this years Winter solstice the full moon rise is at the approx. same azimuth as the summer solstice sunrise. Which should be a good one for Stonehenge.
So it's at what point in time of the lunar standstill cycle I was after. Major, Minor, or somewhere in between. I believe that the 85degrees would mean the full moon would have to be a day before or after the Equinox, as the moon's azimuth moves about that much daily.
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cerrig
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 07:04
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On 2010-09-12 00:55, sem wrote:
Hi Cerrig
BABAS of the world unite, those near Cerrig Duon are PINK!
Sem
PS Does BABAS stand for Beacons Archaeologists Bugger All Sheep?
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Sem
You should stay away from them Cerrig Duon ewes, they mess with your head. I've always found them to be right teasers.
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 09:07
Quote:
| On 2010-09-11 20:40, cerrig wrote:
There is also a full moon on the Winter Solstice this year, with a lunar eclipse . |
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That's great - with any luck we will see the moon setting totally eclipsed as the sun rises on the 21st December.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/OH/OH2010.html#LE2010Dec21T
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=12&year=2010&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
I'll be at Stonehenge for this. Thanks, cerrig.
P.S. Here's my video of a partially eclipsed moonrise in 2006.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2010-09-12 09:57 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 18:20
Quote:
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On 2010-09-12 06:58, cerrig wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-11 22:34, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2010-09-11 21:59, cerrig wrote:
George, would you happen to know at what point in the moons cycle that occurred. I'm talking about the standstill cycle. The reason I'm curious is because we are about 1/2 way between major and minor standstills, which means the range of the moon's rise/set is almost a match with the sun this year.
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Good point Andrew , no I don't know ,I'll try to find out . The WKLB example was what some call a "Neolithic moon " in that it is the first full moon closest to the equinox , not on the equinox .There are a few ,mostly Iberian possible alignments on that event , like WKLB they are not aligned on the equinox .Wklb is closer to 85 degrees . Of course it could all be bollocks but the fact that we do have good dates for the possible build i.e. 3670 -3635 cal BC and the event was 3640 BC plus the conjunction with Jupiter and Saturn too ,if nothing else it's worth mentioning . It must be pretty close to half between standstills as 85 is nearly midway between 40 and 141 degrees the two approx azis for the standstill as that latitude .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2010-09-11 22:58 ]
[/quote]George, I was thinking more along the lines of a time scale . The movements of the moon is a little complex, but I think my understanding is somewhere close . Put me straight if I've got this a bit skewiff.
The last lunar standstill was in 2006, so it will be just over 9 years till the next one, or 2015. So we are now coming up to 1/2 way between them. The extremes of the moons AZ's varies from about 10 degrees outside at the major standstill, and 10 degrees inside at the minor standstill, relative to the sun's extremes(amount dependant on latitude). The moons extremes would then move from outside, at the major standstill, to inside the sun's extremes at the minor standstill over the 9.3 years of the cycle, and then back again to complete the full 18.6 year cycle, and so on. At some point in this cycle the moons extremes will closely match those of the sun, and we are at that point now. So at this years Winter solstice the full moon rise is at the approx. same azimuth as the summer solstice sunrise. Which should be a good one for Stonehenge.
So it's at what point in time of the lunar standstill cycle I was after. Major, Minor, or somewhere in between. I believe that the 85degrees would mean the full moon would have to be a day before or after the Equinox, as the moon's azimuth moves about that much daily.
[/quote]
I think I get you Andrew , i.e. when will the moon next rise on the winter solstice at the same point as the summer solstice sun rise ,and at what point of the lunar cycle ?
It will next rise at the same azimuth as the summer sun rise on the winter solstice in 2026 (in the afternoon so possibly difficult to film ) .
because the cycles they will not always coincide i.e. in 2042 it won't ,hope that makes sense and helps .
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 22:40
Quote:
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On 2010-09-12 09:07, davidmorgan wrote:
[quote]On 2010-09-11 20:40, cerrig wrote:
There is also a full moon on the Winter Solstice this year, with a lunar eclipse . |
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That's great - with any luck we will see the moon setting totally eclipsed as the sun rises on the 21st December.
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/OH/OH2010.html#LE2010Dec21T
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=136&month=12&year=2010&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
I'll be at Stonehenge for this. Thanks, cerrig.
P.S. Here's my video of a partially eclipsed moonrise in 2006.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2010-09-12 09:57 ]
[/quote]
Nice video David, I hope this years view is as good.
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cerrig
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| Posted 12-09-2010 at 22:44
[/quote]
I think I get you Andrew , i.e. when will the moon next rise on the winter solstice at the same point as the summer solstice sun rise ,and at what point of the lunar cycle ?
It will next rise at the same azimuth as the summer sun rise on the winter solstice in 2026 (in the afternoon so possibly difficult to film ) .
because the cycles they will not always coincide i.e. in 2042 it won't ,hope that makes sense and helps .
George
[/quote]I was thinking of the WKLB date you mentioned George.
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 08:46
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On 2010-09-12 22:44, cerrig wrote:
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I think I get you Andrew , i.e. when will the moon next rise on the winter solstice at the same point as the summer solstice sun rise ,and at what point of the lunar cycle ?
It will next rise at the same azimuth as the summer sun rise on the winter solstice in 2026 (in the afternoon so possibly difficult to film ) .
because the cycles they will not always coincide i.e. in 2042 it won't ,hope that makes sense and helps .
George
[/quote]I was thinking of the WKLB date you mentioned George.
[/quote]
Although this is not an answer it might clarify things a bit .The solar solstice and lunar standstills are two different categories of events .The solstice is defined by a rising or setting sun at a particular point on the horizon on a particular day and time and this is repeated annually . The standstills are much fuzzier and better thought of as periods of time when the moon gets very close to it's extremes. There will be one point when it does get the furthest it will achieve but that could be when it is under the horizon , or in the middle of the day and almost certainly not full .The azimuth for that extreme point will be much the same for each event but it will fall on a different date and time . Any help ?
George
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 18:52
Thanks George, I kind of figured it was like that. I wasn't trying to imply that the standstill extremes are a full moon rising event. I had the impression that , like the solar extremes would appear to "standstill" for a few days, the lunar ones would take place for a while too, but probably over a few months. This may or may not involve a full moon at the actual extreme azimuth. It would depend on how the different lunar cycles fitted together at the time, and where it was being observed from. So I can see where you are coming from.
My question seems to have got lost in translation somewhere. It's difficult to make much sense when trying to work out the movements of the moon. There is so much to take into account.
I'll try again, hopefully I'll not get so confused this time.
The sun has a yearly cycle. At the Summer solstice the sun rises at it's most northerly azimuth, as in the famous Stonehenge example. From that date until the Winter solstice, it will rise a little further South every day, at most about 3/4 degree daily at the equinox. At the Winter solstice the sun will rise at it's most southerly azimuth. This takes 6 months, and involves a movement , at the latitude of Stonehenge, of approx. 80 degrees, from about 50 degrees in the summer, to 130 degrees in the winter. The sun then swings around and heads back north again, until the cycle is completed at the summer solstice once again. A time of 12 months.
These extremes are virtually constant, and vary by about 3 degrees over a time scale of 41,000 years. At the present time we are at a middling point in this great cycle.
The moon has a monthly cycle, one that we are all familiar with. It takes about 29.5 days to complete, from one full moon to the next . During this month the moon rises will follow much the same pattern as the yearly sunrises. From north to south and back again. The moon rise moves about 7 degrees a day, so it will cover the yearly range of the sunrises in one month. The mean extremes of the moon rises are approx. the same as the sun's. Between 50 deg and 130 deg.
The moon also has a greater cycle, similar in effect to the sun's. The most noticeable difference being the range . The moon's major azimuth is about 10 degrees beyond the sun's,ie; 40deg and 140deg.
The moons minor azimuths are also about 10 degrees within the sun's, ie; 60deg and 120deg.
This cycle takes 18.6 years to complete, from major standstill to minor standstill and back again. This again is a little like the sun's cycle of solstices and equinox's, with the standstill's being the solstices.
As it takes 18.6 years from major back to major(summer solstice back to summer solstice), and 9.3 years from major to minor( S/S to winter solstice), it follows that 1/2 way between these dates would be the equvalent of an equinox, where the moons extremes are neither inside or outside of the sun's, but virtually the same. And this is where we are today, 1/2 wayish between major and minor standstills. And this autumn's equinox is ,in effect, a double equinox, with a full moon too. No doubt a very rare event.
I may be talking a load of twaddle George, as these cycles within cycles are a bit mind bending, but if I'm rightish it may be that the midpoint between standstills was the more important one for our ancestors, and not just the standstills themselves.
As far as WKLB is concerned, I was wondering at what point in the moons greater cycle was the date you mentioned. Major standstill, Minor standstill, or somewhere in between.
Andrew
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Runemage
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 19:57
Cerrig,
There's a free download and I could have sworn it was on here somewhere tucked in a corner and of course now can I find it?
I'm sure these folks sell their lovely cards via the Portal Shop, is this, or any of their charts any use?
http://www.astrocal.co.uk/moon-rise-calculator.htm
Rune
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Equinox
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 20:24
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On 2010-09-13 18:52, cerrig wrote:
"These extremes are virtually constant, and vary by about 3 degrees over a time scale of 41,000 years. At the present time we are at a middling point in this great cycle"
Hi. Isn't this the change in the angle of the obliquity of the ecliptic, caused by the precession of the equinoxes? I thought that was 25772 years, or is this another cycle
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tiompan
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 20:41
Cerrig , the NASA web site gives some older dates for standstills but nothing like as far back as 3640 BC , it is possible to work out using astro prorammes ,just long winded .I have quite a few dates for eclipses in the neolithic but not standstills , so can't answer your'e question just yet .I'll slowly work through it . Because of the differences in type between solstice and standstills the halfway point for the sun i.e. the equinox makes some sense and has a definite time and point on the horizon but for the two fuzzy categories of major and minor standstill the midway point seems even fuzzier the date would be a nightmare to calculate ,the azimuths , in the case of WKLB it would be approx 60 ,120 240 and 300 degrees are points where the moon would have been seen to rise and set quite regularly throughout it's cycles and they wouldn't have anything special to distinguish them , unlike the major . The minor is bad enough and there is a growing belief among many archaeoastronomers that it's likely importance and possible alignments has been exaggerated . We can argue in favour of the obvious alignmnets at Stone henge and Newgrange , they are indicated ,relatively accurate and the event is an obvious one but most other monuments of their type do not have these characteristics , maybe they were aligned e.g. on the rising sun at a particular anniversary , birth/death date but it would be incredibly difficult to prove it .
George
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cerrig
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| Posted 13-09-2010 at 22:12
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On 2010-09-13 19:57, Runemage wrote:
Cerrig,
There's a free download and I could have sworn it was on here somewhere tucked in a corner and of course now can I find it?
I'm sure these folks sell their lovely cards via the Portal Shop, is this, or any of their charts any use?
http://www.astrocal.co.uk/moon-rise-calculator.htm
Rune
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Thanks Rune. They've managed to show more in one diagram than I've got out in my novellete. I'm unable to find whether theres a cost or whether it's free . Found the postage, but nowt else.
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