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Silbury Hill and the BC |
SteveDut
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|  Posted 15-04-2010 at 14:52
Can anyone tell me if there is any evidence that would suggest that Silbury Hill was a neolithic mans pyramid?
I am struggling with this concept - if they toted the stones to Stonehenge/elsewhere, why not build a pyramid at Silbury as well (if they knew about that technology)?
Could Silbury and Windmill Hill be compared to alignment in the traditional NW - SE caper?
George, what I did find is the Sanctuary/Obelisk-Avebury/Windmill Hill is close to the NW - SE alignment as well.
Also the fact that Silbury looks like a land lighthouse (the beacon of Amon Din is lit!).
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Andy B
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| Posted 16-04-2010 at 13:30
Pyramids are generally tombs and there's no evidence of a burial in Silbury Hill. However as a large monumental structure, albeit in earth and not stone it may have had some of the same monumental functions.
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tiompan
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| Posted 16-04-2010 at 20:11
Steve , pyramids being built of blocks and engineered can ahve slopes of 51 Khufu ,Sahure 55 degrees , but as Andy suggested Silbury was built from chalk ,turf and earth even some sarsen but it did have the the antural angle of repose for the materials about 38-41 degrees and ultimately didn;t ahve sides .
If you draw a line from the Sanctury to Windmill Hill (separated by nearly a millenium in build years ) it does go through the western part of the Avebury monument but doesn't include the obelisk .
George
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SteveDut
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| Posted 18-04-2010 at 09:27
As I'm a neolithic mug George (and I'm glad that you have given me some great info to date) I didn't do/realise the building dates were so far apart. It seems to me though, that a lot of the alignments in the British Isles are nearly/always NW - SE based and perhaps sometimes previous structures reconstucted to suit?
Thanks Andy, your input is always the most valuable mate.
Hope all is well with both of you and your families.
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 18-04-2010 at 22:39
Hi Steve, I may be missing something but I was under the impression that most alignments from Neolithic and Bronze age in the British Isles are NE/SW not NW/SE.
This is generally assumed to be respecting the midsummer sunrise and mid winter sunset.
Almost all stone circles and alignments here in Ireland are NE/SW and variations are usually to accommodate specific celestial events.
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tiompan
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| Posted 18-04-2010 at 23:56
Depends on the type of alignment Steve .Whilst not strictly an alignmnet there is a quite a common grading of height within monuments i.e. stone circles ring cairns , kerb cairns etc .from small at the NE to taller at the SW . Stone rows depending on the area can be all over the place but in Scotland they are NW -SE whereas in Cork & kerry it's back to the NE -SW . Grading of height in the stone rows is pretty much 50/50 for each direction . However you may be thinking more along the lines of monuments in relation to each other rather than the orienation of a single monument .
George
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SteveDut
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| Posted 19-04-2010 at 13:16
Unfortunately Frog, there isn't any street view (or good Google photomaps) of Southern Ireland to relate too (as far as Google Earth goes) but have started to research your NE/SW alignments and am finding heaps - thanks mate (you can only dilute thick).
Good on ya George, once again you are near to my line of thought and proven to be a megalithically handy bloke to know (I was thinking more of Thornborough in relation to the Windmill Hill comment - should make that plainer in the future).
Will also have a look at the "grading of height in the stone rows" if there are any good websites to explore (are outliers involved in this line of thought?)
All the best
PS don't forget the ANZACS this weekend.
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tiompan
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| Posted 19-04-2010 at 14:55
Yep Thornborough(s) are NW -SE (in relation to one another and also approx agps in the bank /entrance)which is probably the most common for Henge entrance(s) too but the entrances do cover a wide range of compass points , 320-340 is pretty much in the majority .If you find one around 220-240 that would be a rarity . Will bear in mind it's ANZAC day this weekend .
George
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 19-04-2010 at 19:03
Yeah Steve, Google hasn't got to us yet and my internet connection is so slow I wouldn't be able to use it anyway!
The good thing is that we are surrounded by this stuff here, just click on any of the sites between Kenmare and Bantry ( South Kerry/West Cork) and you will see there are loads and they are almost without exception aligned NE/SW.
The interesting thing about their locations is they occur in places where they have a clear view to the NE but usually a hill or other landscape feature to the SW. I can only assume this is to give a better chance of seeing sunrise and a feature for the midwinter sun to set behind.
There is some evidence to suggest that the circles especially may be placed in valleys that are obscured from view when looking from the tops of the sacred mountains
Viewshed analysis from the Paps na Nua and mount Brandon point to areas of the landscape that are invisible from these peaks and may be a reason for their significance.
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
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|  Posted 20-04-2010 at 07:20
Can somebody explain what the title of this topic means?
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SteveDut
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| Posted 20-04-2010 at 11:42
The bottom line Bernard, is I'm learning and these blokes are helping me to understand things that I can't access from Australia at the moment. (I'm a mug at this game at the moment and I'll cop it sweet till I can really contribute)
Truth be known, any website that you/anyone can point me to that can give a summary/opinion/bloody good guess of what research has provided is best (especially Avebury and Stonehenge and their surrounds [Cornwall too]) but anywhere really.
George, thanks for the ANZAC comment, as far as megalithic things, got heaps more to do hey?
Frog, if I get anything out of the street view comp I'll go you halves. I appreciate your suggestions and am keen to see what I can find between Kenmare and Bantry (might even look at Mt Brandon too)
May the devil find out half an hour after you die that you are in heaven.
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tiompan
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| Posted 20-04-2010 at 12:04
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On 2010-04-20 11:42, SteveDut wrote:
The bottom line Bernard, is I'm learning and these blokes are helping me to understand things that I can't access from Australia at the moment. (I'm a mug at this game at the moment and I'll cop it sweet till I can really contribute)
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Wer'e all mugs at this game Steve .
George
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SteveDut
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 08:52
Hey Frog, in regards to your comment:
"Hi Steve, I may be missing something but I was under the impression that most alignments from Neolithic and Bronze age in the British Isles are NE/SW not NW/SE"
Thanks heaps for that but now I have a new mystery.
The info that you gave me is correct (not that I doubted ya) as far as the NE/SW alignments go from what I've got it so far (but I must of started my research at the most unlikely alignment - Thornborough!)
I looked up Google Sky and checked out Orion's Belt relevancy. According to their north view it is a little over the NE/SW alignment but close enough.
So, is it plausible that the builders of Thornborough had the plans upside down/back to front at the time?
[ This message was edited by: SteveDut on 2010-04-25 08:56 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 09:26
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On 2010-04-25 08:52, SteveDut wrote:
Hey Frog, in regards to your comment:
"Hi Steve, I may be missing something but I was under the impression that most alignments from Neolithic and Bronze age in the British Isles are NE/SW not NW/SE"
Thanks heaps for that but now I have a new mystery.
The info that you gave me is correct (not that I doubted ya) as far as the NE/SW alignments go from what I've got it so far (but I must of started my research at the most unlikely alignment - Thornborough!)
I looked up Google Sky and checked out Orion's Belt relevancy. According to their north view it is a little over the NE/SW alignment but close enough.
So, is it plausible that the builders of Thornborough had the plans upside down/back to front at the time?
[ This message was edited by: SteveDut on 2010-04-25 08:56 ]
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Steve , I didn't realise you were connecting the Orion "shape " to Thornborough . Bauval and others sugegsted it with the pyramids this was refuted and later accepted as being ok so the same could apply to to Thornborough but personally I would go for three point that are similar rather than copying the pattern . If it involved more points and thus more complex it might be more salient , even four points are likely to be found replicated by chance .
George
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 09:43
Hi Steve, star alignments are very difficult to associate accurately,
Orion's Belt for instance would rise with the three stars nearly vertically aligned in the East at midwinter (21/12) and set with the stars nearly horizontal to the horizon in the West.
I use one of the Starry Night programs to check these things, you can input a specific date, time and location and play the apparent sky in any given direction. It is really brilliant for giving accurate moon and sun positions and if you know the rough date of a sites construction you can view the sky as it was for the builders.
The key alignments for stone monuments are I believe mostly based on either Sun and moon positions or local landmarks/ viewpoints.
I am still trying to work out some of the associations between monuments where I live because the people who built them would not have had the kind of mapping available to us yet managed to build monuments that line up pretty well on the map despite not having any means of seeing one from the other.
Anyway the more people using these resources to try and spots patterns in things the more chance one of us might trip over something helpful, so keep looking and remember that the answers are only ever as good as the questions!
I often think that we are like an Octopus with a calculator looking at these things; bright enough to use it and quite pleased with the way it looks but no clue whatsoever as to what it does or why we should need to know!
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tiompan
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 12:04
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I am still trying to work out some of the associations between monuments where I live because the people who built them would not have had the kind of mapping available to us yet managed to build monuments that line up pretty well on the map despite not having any means of seeing one from the other.
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Not sure what your'e suggesting F.C. could you give some examples please ?
George
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 20:05
Hi Tiompan, I am referring to the circles on the Beara peninsular and similarly some between Bantry and Macroom. There are groups which when plotted on a map fall within a very tight corridor.
The group which surround me on the Beara when plotted on a map fall within 1km of a line at about 230 degrees and again roughly the same alignment can be seen on other nearby groups even though there are sizeable mountains in between each monument and the next.
If you extend the same line for about ten km inland another few are also within this area. In short at least 70 percent of the circles on this peninsular fall on this line but when you travel between them there is no way you would realise this because of the terrain.
There are similar unexplained commonalities regarding tombs which seem to have a relationship with specific altitudes , again difficult to see unless you look at a map.
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tiompan
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 21:19
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On 2010-04-25 20:05, frogcottage42 wrote:
Hi Tiompan, I am referring to the circles on the Beara peninsular and similarly some between Bantry and Macroom. There are groups which when plotted on a map fall within a very tight corridor.
The group which surround me on the Beara when plotted on a map fall within 1km of a line at about 230 degrees and again roughly the same alignment can be seen on other nearby groups even though there are sizeable mountains in between each monument and the next.
If you extend the same line for about ten km inland another few are also within this area. In short at least 70 percent of the circles on this peninsular fall on this line but when you travel between them there is no way you would realise this because of the terrain.
There are similar unexplained commonalities regarding tombs which seem to have a relationship with specific altitudes , again difficult to see unless you look at a map.
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I thought that was what you meant but wasn't sure .A similar thing can be found with some RSC 's very accurate , maintaining the same azi over over hills and certainly not intervisible . Basically a ley line . Not sure how to explain it or whether it was intentional , epiphenomenal or whether in these particular cases (RSC 's ) the number and proximity made it a possibility .
The less accurate ones in your area seem more likely re. intentionality .Plus geology might be a component in hillier areas ,parallel and isomorphic glens as opposed to less glaciated amorphous farmland .The 230 degrees orientation is also not too far off the mark for a rough mean of the orientation of the ASC 's and stone rows of Kerry too .
George
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frogcottage42
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| Posted 25-04-2010 at 23:20
I guess I am drifting off the original thread a bit but as I suggested to Steve there does seem to be a probable connection with the view points from certain high mountains.
It seems that NOT being visible from the 'Sacred' peaks was an important feature with some of these sites and without going into the whole Leyline debate it would require a sort of governing body to dictate the position of some of these sites if they really do abide by such strict criteria regarding alignment and location.
Do you think there was some kind of planning approval required ?!?
I suspect the people who built them would think we are all pretty thick, I suspect there is a blindingly obvious explanation.
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tiompan
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| Posted 26-04-2010 at 00:17
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On 2010-04-25 23:20, frogcottage42 wrote:
I guess I am drifting off the original thread a bit but as I suggested to Steve there does seem to be a probable connection with the view points from certain high mountains.
It seems that NOT being visible from the 'Sacred' peaks was an important feature with some of these sites and without going into the whole Leyline debate it would require a sort of governing body to dictate the position of some of these sites if they really do abide by such strict criteria regarding alignment and location.
Do you think there was some kind of planning approval required ?!?
I suspect the people who built them would think we are all pretty thick, I suspect there is a blindingly obvious explanation.
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Different areas and different type of monuments do appear to have a kind of "grammar " ,All over Europe tombs entrances tend to face the sun and downhill if there is a slope , LBK houses are oriented in the same direction without regard for the prevailing wind etc . (although there are always the small percentage of anomalies ) .The viewshed or lack of is telling .Sometimes it's the big expansive view whilst others avoid it by a matter of metres and obviously intentionally .
Yep it's unlikely to be complicated , it's just early days and we are slow .
Maybe not so much in the bronze Age when a family/tribe could build a stone circle or dig a barrow within the conventions of their cosmology but the early neolithic mega monuments must have had a huge input of planning and co-operation .From a pits ,middens and some possible wooden structures to West Kennet in a generation is Dubai squared .
George
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