Featured Title:
Free book with orders of £10 or over in our shop |
 |
| A Beginner's Guide to Digital Video £3.50 |
 |
| Login |
|
Don't have an account yet? You can create one. As a registered user you have some advantages like your own home page, fewer ads, and your contributions link to your page. |
| Who's Online |
There are currently, 125 guests and 5 members online.
You are a guest. To join in, please register for free by clicking here |
| |
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Saith maen
|
 |
| Author |
Saith maen |
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
 OFF-Line
|  Posted 24-12-2009 at 14:06
This may be of interest to those who visit the southern Welsh sites . As far as I know there hasn't been an assesment of the Saith Maen stone row other than it is roughly oriented towards the unsighted Cerrig Duon , it's actually 8 degrees too far east .In the other direction ,which seems to be have been ignored , it points to where the major lunar standstill would occur every 18.6 years . I am not aware of this having been noted previously so if anyone does please let me know .
George
 Profile
 Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 24-12-2009 at 15:18
Quote:
|
On 2009-12-24 14:06, tiompan wrote:
This may be of interest to those who visit the southern Welsh sites . As far as I know there hasn't been an assesment of the Saith Maen stone row other than it is roughly oriented towards the unsighted Cerrig Duon , it's actually 8 degrees too far east .In the other direction ,which seems to be have been ignored , it points to where the major lunar standstill would occur every 18.6 years . I am not aware of this having been noted previously so if anyone does please let me know .
George
|
|
hi george
i was up there a couple of weeks ago with sem. a lofty spot with some great views. i did take a compass bearing of the line up. as i'm sure you know,its difficult to be very accurate with this because of the nature of the stones, but i would say that the alignment is approx. 24deg true(27deg mag)
the alignment in the other direction wasn't pointing to a spot on the horizon that was marked in any way,although it could be seen that the sun ,which was a couple of hours from setting in its near solstice position, was going to come down a little way to the west of the alignment. so i could go with a lunar standstill setting.
this spot is west of the Cribbarth peaks. there are 2 peaks there,both have cairns on the tops, and in line with them,and on the same peak as the northern one, is a kind of birds nest with a single red sandstone egg in it(sem spotted this) .saith maen also has a single red sandstone boulder in its set up,all the others being grey sandstone. this stone has a straight side on its eastern edge that is aligned n/e-s/w. i did take a bearing from it but i can't place it right now. it would have been in the low forties east of north,and looking north it pointed to a bwllch in the hills,at a spot where the road crests just south of Cray reservoir. which is another lunar possibility and a good foresight for it.
i have looked at the position of saith maen in relation to cerrig duon before, but in a different context to astronomical alignments.
it is a most intriguing monument.
thanks for your post george,it opens up some new avenues of investigation. i may have to drag sem back there up for another look.
cerrig
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 24-12-2009 at 15:41
Quote:
|
On 2009-12-24 15:18, cerrig wrote:
[quote]
On 2009-12-24 14:06, tiompan wrote:
This may be of interest to those who visit the southern Welsh sites . As far as I know there hasn't been an assesment of the Saith Maen stone row other than it is roughly oriented towards the unsighted Cerrig Duon , it's actually 8 degrees too far east .In the other direction ,which seems to be have been ignored , it points to where the major lunar standstill would occur every 18.6 years . I am not aware of this having been noted previously so if anyone does please let me know .
George
|
|
hi george
i was up there a couple of weeks ago with sem. a lofty spot with some great views. i did take a compass bearing of the line up. as i'm sure you know,its difficult to be very accurate with this because of the nature of the stones, but i would say that the alignment is approx. 24deg true(27deg mag)
the alignment in the other direction wasn't pointing to a spot on the horizon that was marked in any way,although it could be seen that the sun ,which was a couple of hours from setting in its near solstice position, was going to come down a little way to the west of the alignment. so i could go with a lunar standstill setting.
this spot is west of the Cribbarth peaks. there are 2 peaks there,both have cairns on the tops, and in line with them,and on the same peak as the northern one, is a kind of birds nest with a single red sandstone egg in it(sem spotted this) .saith maen also has a single red sandstone boulder in its set up,all the others being grey sandstone. this stone has a straight side on its eastern edge that is aligned n/e-s/w. i did take a bearing from it but i can't place it right now. it would have been in the low forties east of north,and looking north it pointed to a bwllch in the hills,at a spot where the road crests just south of Cray reservoir. which is another lunar possibility and a good foresight for it.
i have looked at the position of saith maen in relation to cerrig duon before, but in a different context to astronomical alignments.
it is a most intriguing monument.
thanks for your post george,it opens up some new avenues of investigation. i may have to drag sem back there up for another look.
cerrig
Martin Powell surveyed it and got 25 and 205 degrees , but seven stones some fallen etc are not precision instruments . The stone row itself provides enough intentionality and doesn't really need a marker to confirm it ,although there is no guarentee it was intended to mark the moon .It is only to the south it works to the north there is nothing salient in relation to sun or moon I dare say some star or cluster could be found but I have little faith in that approach . The resulting declination is very close to minus 30 required for the standstill but with the caveat with all standstill orientations that it is not like a solstice , often it takes place in daylight ,or the phase of the moon is far from full , sometimes it isn't even seen due the speed of the moon , having reached the maximum whilst below the horizon ,then there are practical things like cloud cover and it only happens every 18.6 years .You could be a very keen astronmer and never see a major standstill in your lifetime .
George
[/quote]
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 24-12-2009 at 16:12
george
i have photos of the alignments of the row north and south,with some of the single sandstone too. the sun only came out just after my batteries died so a little drissly but it is clear enough i think. i will post them when i've a bit more time, Santa duty is calling me right now.
you may care to check out the distances from Saith Maen to Cerrig Duon,and from there to the stone circle at Waun Lwyd(sn8085-24390.)these 3 form a triangle.
if you throw in the distance from Waun Lwyd to the circle on Rhyd wen fach(sn 8224-2313) and use this as an integer for the
triangle,it gets interesting with the red sandstone in Saith maen.
if you compare this distance with the distance from cerrig duon to maen leuchi(sn8545-2150) then Saith Maen to Maen leuchi gets interesting too,as does the number of stones in the row.
maybe there's a reason for Saith Maen's set up after all.
merry xmas George,and everyone else on the portal.
cerrig
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 24-12-2009 at 17:19
Quote:
|
On 2009-12-24 16:12, cerrig wrote:
george
you may care to check out the distances from Saith Maen to Cerrig Duon,and from there to the stone circle at Waun Lwyd(sn8085-24390.)these 3 form a triangle.
if you throw in the distance from Waun Lwyd to the circle on Rhyd wen fach(sn 8224-2313) and use this as an integer for the
triangle,it gets interesting with the red sandstone in Saith maen.
merry xmas George,and everyone else on the portal.
cerrig
|
|
Cerrig , isn't Waun Lwyd in Cardiganshire ? the nearest to that grid ref appears to be Banau sir gaer ??
Merry xmas to you too .
George
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 24-12-2009 at 22:41
hi george
nippers are in bed ,santas on his way,so i'm redundant (again)
there may be a waun lwyd in cardiganshire, i don't know, though welsh place names do repeat quite a lot so i wouldn't be surprised.
the circle in question is listed in the coflein database as "bannau sir gaer circle-waun lwyd circle".(nprn 92909)
the truth is it's" the circle with no name",maybe it should be called "Clint"
the grid reference is just one of several i have seen for this circle,i used the 1/25,000 map of the western brecon beacons for the layout i mentioned. not ideal but it does the job.
the apex for the triangle is a little n/w of cerrig duon.
cerrig
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-01-2010 at 15:07
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=54092&orderby=dateD
This is the view that George identified as having a possible lunar standstill alignment. It would seem that if that was the case then the mound to the left was a deliberate inclusion in it.
This mound has 2 cairns,and a curious single red sandstone boulder(it's the only one on the mound).
cerrig 
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-01-2010 at 16:24
That's it Cerrig , if there is a stone marking that point I would imagine it's fortuitous as most stone rows don't have outliers with possible astro oreinations don't have ouliers , but you never know .
George
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 05-01-2010 at 16:50
The alignment would seem to be to the point where the mound meets the skyline. This is to an area that has been quarried so if there was any other kind of marker then it has almost certainly gone now. But i don't think there was anything there. This use of converging skylines is something that i've noticed elsewhere and wondered about. It seems to be widespread in the Beacons,but difficult to prove as such. I am hoping to add a new site soon that should show just this useage,if the sun will shine for me this year that is.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=54094&orderby=
this is the red sandstone boulder showing its sighting to the pass through the hills.This stone is unlike any of the others there. The other 6 stones are all much the same width and thickness,just different lengths. The red stone is a short stubby boulder with a flattened vertical side.
I have mistakenly described the grey stones as sandstone,when they are in fact "carboniferous silicious grit". I also claimed Saith Maen for Glamorgan when it's in Breckonshire(Powys),so no prizes for research there.
The bearing suggested by the stone is approx. 40deg true.
cerrig
[ This message was edited by: cerrig on 2010-01-05 17:10 ]
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 09-01-2010 at 00:56
george,
could this stone be pointing at the winter solstice sunset,it's close now,but in the past it may have been closer. i don't have the means to check back myself.
cerrig
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 09-01-2010 at 11:41
Quote:
|
On 2010-01-09 00:56, cerrig wrote:
george,
could this stone be pointing at the winter solstice sunset,it's close now,but in the past it may have been closer. i don't have the means to check back myself.
cerrig
|
|
Sorry Cerrig but not sure which stone you mean . Solstice alignments are hardly affected by precession so any changes will be minimal .
George
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 09-01-2010 at 12:38
hi george
it's the red sandstone boulder in the row that interests me,it's eastern face seems to be pointing at something(40/220 deg)
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a312/gallery/wales/glamorgan/Saith_Maen_West_066_copy.jpg
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 09-01-2010 at 14:15
Right , as it's part of the row the most obvious indication is along the row itself .There are some examples of "playing card " type stones providing an obvious orienation but they are not usually accepted and are very difficult to prove re. intention . If you chose every stone in the row you would manage to find some meaningful alignment but was it intended ? The same might apply to the row itself but it is more salient.
George
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 10-01-2010 at 13:56
Right , as it's part of the row the most obvious indication is along the row itself .There are some examples of "playing card " type stones providing an obvious orienation but they are not usually accepted and are very difficult to prove re. intention . If you chose every stone in the row you would manage to find some meaningful alignment but was it intended ? The same might apply to the row itself but it is more salient.
George
[/quote]i can see the logic there george,the row would be more believable as a pointer,fair enough. It's the oddity of the red stone that interests me particularly here. It stands out as being different, there has to be a reason for that.
Profile
Reply
|
tiompan
Joined:
09-01-2005
Messages: 2637
OFF-Line
| Posted 10-01-2010 at 16:03
Right , as it's part of the row the most obvious indication is along the row itself .There are some examples of "playing card " type stones providing an obvious orienation but they are not usually accepted and are very difficult to prove re. intention . If you chose every stone in the row you would manage to find some meaningful alignment but was it intended ? The same might apply to the row itself but it is more salient.
George
[/quote]i can see the logic there george,the row would be more believable as a pointer,fair enough. It's the oddity of the red stone that interests me particularly here. It stands out as being different, there has to be a reason for that.
[/quote]
i agree , the others have flatter faces too ,judging by the pics .
George
Profile
Reply
|
cerrig
Joined:
25-09-2009
Messages: 907
from Brecon Beacons
OFF-Line
| Posted 10-01-2010 at 17:57
The other 6 stones are all slab like. they are much the same in size regarding width and thickness. The main difference being the lengths. they probably all came from the same bedding plane.
The red sandstone, being a more rounded boulder shape on one side,and being quite flat on the other,seems to show signs that it may have been worked. there are no tool marks i know of,but the difference from one side to the other is striking. It would seem to show to me that the rounded western face is what you would expect to find on a stone that has been exposed on the surface for some time,possibly even in a stream or river. The flattened Eastern face is quite different.It is very flat,and vertical in its setting. The northern sighting along this side is to the pass through the hills,and the southern sighting is to the crest of a small flattish hill.This stone has something quite deliberate about it.
I can't come up with a good reason for it's inclusion in the row,unless it's got a story to tell.
Profile
Reply
| |
|
|
|
|
|
IMPORTANT NOTES: This site uses COOKIES. Please do not use this web site if you do not agree to our Terms and Conditions of use.
If you plan to visit ancient sites in person, please make sure you follow our Charter.
Articles, photographs and comments are the property of their respective authors or contributors, please contact them for permission to reproduce. Site design ©1997-2012 Andy Burnham.
|
Main News