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Frosty debate over bluestone mystery of Stonehenge |
coldrum
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|  Posted 27-12-2008 at 19:46
LONG-STANDING theories that teams of ancient tribesmen hauled 80 giant bluestones from Pembrokeshire to build Stonehenge have been dismissed by a Welsh geology expert.
It has often been claimed that Neolithic people dragged the two-tonne megaliths over 156 miles of mountain, river and sea to build the iconic stone circle in Wiltshire.
The theory gained fresh credence in October when, after new excavation work at the site, Professor Geoffrey Wainwright claimed the site was a “prehistoric Lourdes” famed for its healing powers.
But geomorphology expert Brian John, from Newport, Pembrokeshire, has now poured scorn on the “human transport” scenario in a new book – by suggesting the stones were moved by glacier.
Dr John said: “Why on earth would anyone in their right minds in 2,600BC consider hauling these huge rocks up and down hills and across the sea? It couldn’t be done.”
The scientist is better placed than most to comment, having taken part in the ill-fated bluestone transport reconstruction in 2000. An army of volunteers using modern ropes and – at one point – a crane, failed dismally to get a bluestone out of Pembrokeshire. It ultimately ended up in the sea off Milford Haven.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/12/26/frosty-debate-over-bluestone-mystery-of-stonehenge-91466-22542421/
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sem
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| Posted 27-12-2008 at 20:47
This could be worth a read but I wonder if Brian John has ever been to Carn Meini where the Bluestones were quarried. He says "...hauling these huge rocks up and down hills."
From Carn Meini it's less than 2 miles (downhill) to a river that ends in Milford Haven. From there it's by sea using tides and wind to a few miles from Stonehenge.
Poor Dr John assumes that the people of that time were not in their right minds. Given the failure of the recreation I would suggest that it is we who are not in our right minds.
"Where there is a will there is a way" is a time honoured saying. "The cheapest bid for the contract" is now our mantra.
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AngieLake
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|  Posted 27-12-2008 at 22:09
Hi folks,
You'll find that Brian posts on Meg P under the name of 'Mountainman'.
He has also posted his theories under another Forum thread, and his website has loads of info about the Preselis, where he lives.
I'm pretty sure he has already promoted his book on here.
He has posted many arguments about his theory on Eternal Idol, too, (a website worth taking a look at for interesting ideas).
It's his opinion, and we're all welcome to make up our own minds about how the stones got to Salisbury Plain. 
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 28-12-2008 at 11:20
“Why on earth would anyone in their right minds in 2,600BC consider hauling these huge rocks up and down hills and across the sea? It couldn’t be done.”
So how did the massive granite blocks (estimated to weigh 50 to 80 tonnes) in the King's chamber of the great pyramid at Giza get the 500 miles from Aswan in 2560 BCE?
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 29-12-2008 at 06:22
I'd quite like to contribute to this thread, but not if it's going to be infested with talk about the stones being moved by gravity being switched off.
I've been unfairly accused of being a troll for arguing against someone's alternative views on the Mysteries forum. Does hijacking a rational discussion on the Stones forum with mumbo jumbo stone-moving theories constitute trolling? Or not? It seems like people want to call for a "safe space" for nonsense but not for sensible chat about stones.
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mountainman
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| Posted 29-12-2008 at 11:40
Just picked up on this. In reply to SEM I can assure him (her?) that I have spent good chunks of my time over the last 40 years or more in visiting Carn Meini and the surrounding area. And the river that's 2 miles away? Has Sem ever looked at it and considered how large stones might be floated on it, or moved downstream along the banks? Come on -- let's have a reality check here!! We are talking of a small muddy and shallow stream with overgrown banks, sections of rapids, and boggy areas and dense stands of willow jungle.....
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On 2008-12-27 19:46, coldrum wrote:
LONG-STANDING theories that teams of ancient tribesmen hauled 80 giant bluestones from Pembrokeshire to build Stonehenge have been dismissed by a Welsh geology expert.
It has often been claimed that Neolithic people dragged the two-tonne megaliths over 156 miles of mountain, river and sea to build the iconic stone circle in Wiltshire.
The theory gained fresh credence in October when, after new excavation work at the site, Professor Geoffrey Wainwright claimed the site was a “prehistoric Lourdes” famed for its healing powers.
But geomorphology expert Brian John, from Newport, Pembrokeshire, has now poured scorn on the “human transport” scenario in a new book – by suggesting the stones were moved by glacier.
Dr John said: “Why on earth would anyone in their right minds in 2,600BC consider hauling these huge rocks up and down hills and across the sea? It couldn’t be done.”
The scientist is better placed than most to comment, having taken part in the ill-fated bluestone transport reconstruction in 2000. An army of volunteers using modern ropes and – at one point – a crane, failed dismally to get a bluestone out of Pembrokeshire. It ultimately ended up in the sea off Milford Haven.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/12/26/frosty-debate-over-bluestone-mystery-of-stonehenge-91466-22542421/
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 29-12-2008 at 14:42
"Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."
I'm wondering to whom on this forum this mostly applies.
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sem
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| Posted 29-12-2008 at 21:32
Hi Mountainman
I'm definately HE (I think) and I'm going to get a copy of your book. To argue my point though, one thing people forget is that Neolithic/Bronze Age people did not think as we do. When you wrote "not in their right minds" I think "not using our mind-set" would have been a better phrase.
They did not employ contractors on a cost basis but did the job themselves as it was a thing that had to be done. It was not something to be done to a deadline nor even in a lifetime, just something that had to be done as part of life. When you look at the problem of moving the stones from this angle, little things like rapids, boggy areas etc become insignificant.
Just out of curiosity, I know of only one bluestone in the SH area not used in the circle, do you think it conceivable that they used every bluestone dropped by glaciers?
Contributions like yours are invaluable and your 40yrs research far exceeds mine, but I still think you are wrong.
On a lighter note, I was told of someone who is utterly convinced of the theory, that the stones were levitated from Bedd Arthur to SH. Maybe we are both wrong!?!
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Andy B
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| Posted 30-12-2008 at 19:04
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On 2008-12-29 06:22, Chyknel2 wrote:
I'd quite like to contribute to this thread, but not if it's going to be infested with talk about the stones being moved by gravity being switched off.
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Seconded, please start a new thread in Mysteries if you want to talk about that sort of stuff.
Cropredy, we tolerate you and your ways in the Mysteries forum but do not lecture or attack people who contribute in the other forums.
By the way there was already a thread running on this from when Brian announced his book in September:
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=3114&forum=1
[ This message was edited by: Andy B on 2008-12-30 19:19 ]
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cropredy
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| Posted 30-12-2008 at 20:53
Andy B,
You will tolerate me no more, please remove my ability to post on any of this site.
Goodbye to all, all the best for the future.
Kevin
PS;-I had not noticed that my origonal post and my reply to Chyknels accusation of INFESTING the thread had been removed.
I will repeat that chyknel is a BBBBBigot.
Andy BBBB?
Chyknel is a Bigot
Andy B
And that I never called for any safe area to be created, that to me demonstrates the depth of the contempt felt for those with alternate views, as stated "TOLERATED"
No wonder the megaliths are viewed with such a lack of care or understanding, after all, they are just for burial, as that is all These sites and the accepted view promote.
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2008-12-31 13:35 ]
[ This message was edited by: cropredy on 2009-01-04 20:11 ]
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sem
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| Posted 01-01-2009 at 18:54
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2008-12-29 06:22, Chyknel2 wrote:
I'd quite like to contribute to this thread, but not if it's going to be infested with talk about the stones being moved by gravity being switched off.
Andy B
I recently had a discussion with a friend who has no interest in megaliths and is in no way involved with MP. At some point in the conversation I mentioned the idea of of levitating stones, in response to which I was subjected to 5mins worth of why it is scientifically possible, all of which went completeley over my head.
Which brings me to the point.
Do theories by other scientists (as opposed to archaeologists), belong in the Mysteries rather than the Stones forum.
Cheers
Sem
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AlbertResonox
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| Posted 01-01-2009 at 22:49
I'd politely suggest Sem...the fact that it "went over your head" would put the explanation in the category "mystery"(even if only such to yourself...though I daresay if I'd been present I may have been in your company as baffled).How on earth could you let someone give you a 5 min lecture which was beyond your ken without interjection or question is also a mystery...this conversation wasn't in the presence of strong drink perchance 
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Andy B
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| Posted 02-01-2009 at 00:09
If it sounds 'mainstream' it goes here. If it sounds 'way out' or against your normal experiences then it should go in Mysteries. Unfortunately I think this is where some people have problems with their own take on reality but for most people ithis should work.
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sem
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| Posted 02-01-2009 at 15:45
Albert & Andy
The "lecture" was on phsyics. Eventually R will explain in terms I understand but I know the man better than the science. When he goes on a rant, let him carry on and then query points later.
Incidently, Mrs Einstein was once asked if she understood her husband's theory of relativity. Her reply was that she understood something far more important... Albert.
Sem
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Andy B
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| Posted 02-01-2009 at 18:17
If you're sure it's physics and not pseudoscientific bollocks then post it here.
Cheers
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 03-01-2009 at 02:02
Quote:
| On 2009-01-02 18:17, Andy B wrote:
If you're sure it's physics and not pseudoscientific bollocks then post it here. |
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"The Age of Enlightenment is a term used to describe a phase in Western philosophy and cultural life centred upon the eighteenth century, in which reason was advocated as the primary source and legitimacy for authority. This period is also known as the Age of Reason."
Thanks, Andy. I'm with you in the age of reason (ongoing).
P.S. Interesting slant that first paragraph out of Wikipedia gives. Like it was just a phase.
[ This message was edited by: davidmorgan on 2009-01-03 02:05 ]
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AlbertResonox
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| Posted 04-01-2009 at 09:06
I suppose that in the winter months...which we are assured were a lot more severe way back then....food would be preserved/frozen and stored..there would be less need of hunting(less to hunt anyway)...so large stones could be moved on rudimentary sledges during the long bleak winter seasons...leaving the fecund months free for hunting gathering...This would have several benefits....exercise,tribe reinforcement and morale building.
Or perhaps,our forebears would just sit huddled around fires doing nothing but bemoaning the cold snap as we do nowadays....lol
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sem
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| Posted 05-01-2009 at 00:46
Hi Albert
Modern studies of hunter-gatherer societies seem to show that they have an enormous amount of free time, most of which is spent being sociable.
Think of it like this.
Right boys, let's go find some food. We know where it's likely to be. Well we've got some meat, let's take it home and boast about how we got it.
Meanwhile, back at camp. While the boys are out having fun, let's pick a few berries, it'll make that stringy stuff they bring more tasty.
End result - Hi Honey, I'm home. Nothing on Sky eh? Guess we'll have to talk about the real one .
Cheers
Sem
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mountainman
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| Posted 05-01-2009 at 09:14
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On 2008-12-28 11:20, davidmorgan wrote:
“Why on earth would anyone in their right minds in 2,600BC consider hauling these huge rocks up and down hills and across the sea? It couldn’t be done.”
So how did the massive granite blocks (estimated to weigh 50 to 80 tonnes) in the King's chamber of the great pyramid at Giza get the 500 miles from Aswan in 2560 BCE?
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I'll disregard the snide comment about being a bigot, David (assuming it was aimed at me) and remind you that I'm trying to concentrate on evidence here, and am at least trying to discuss things. The quote attributed to me was in fact invented by a Western Mail journalist. I would never say "It couldn't be done." I will say it was vanishingly improbable -- not because moving big stones is impossible, but because there are so many different locations involved in the case of the bluestones. Did the stones come from at least 20 different sacred sites, including some where the stone was crumbly and not at all useful for building megalithic structures?
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mikecroley
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| Posted 05-01-2009 at 11:08
Quote:
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On 2008-12-28 11:20, davidmorgan wrote:
So how did the massive granite blocks (estimated to weigh 50 to 80 tonnes) in the King's chamber of the great pyramid at Giza get the 500 miles from Aswan in 2560 BCE?
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Surely you're not suggesting that the construction start date of the Great pyramid, and phase 3 of Stonehenge fell within the same time frame? That would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
mike
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