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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Stonehenge Bluestones: New research disproves human transport theory
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Stonehenge Bluestones: New research disproves human transport theory |
tiompan
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|  Posted 01-10-2008 at 21:29
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On 2008-10-01 20:44, mountainman wrote:
Thanks George
Interesting. Hmmm.. I'm not convinced that these (ie the English) Preselite axes were made in Wales. Prof Chris Jones did a statistical analysis and found it highly improbable that the matches would be as good as they are unless the English axes had come from the Stonehenge assemblage of stones. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If you don't know the refs, I'll dig them out...
James, all peace and light again. That's fine! By the way, I didn't say that the Megalith builders were unable to transport large stones over great distances, and that that somehow proves the glaciation theory. With all due respect, you are putting words into my mouth. I think it's possible that they carried them 10,20,30 km -- that would be pretty impressive anyway. What I was talking about was the wide variety of bluestone source locations and highly varied and difficult terrain. And the glacial transport theory is based on a great deal of evidence -- much of it already in the literature. 
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I don't know the Chris Jones paper but would accept stats (athough with misgivings of their use in other areas ) over theory in this case . The blue stone axes may simply have been better quality than the local , probably flint , which is perfectly adequate . An interesting aspect on this would be what type of used and unused axe , if any , is used as deposits around Stonehenge . If the bluestone axes have been used and not treated as exotic then there is less likliehood of any particular association with their " power" healing or otherwise . But even if the axes were being made locally that doesn't make Stonehenge an axe factory .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2008-10-02 07:29 ]
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
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from Oldham, Lancashire
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|  Posted 01-10-2008 at 23:50
Hasn't an ancient wheeled "toy" recently turned up in eastern europe?
If wheeled carts were around in 3,000bc then transporting the bluestones would be easy peasy. 
Slide number 6
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/cucuteni-art.html
[ This message was edited by: BERNARDQUATERMASS on 2008-10-02 00:14 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 07:35
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On 2008-10-01 23:50, BERNARDQUATERMASS wrote:
Hasn't an ancient wheeled "toy" recently turned up in eastern europe?
If wheeled carts were around in 3,000bc then transporting the bluestones would be easy peasy.
Slide number 6
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/cucuteni-art.html
[ This message was edited by: BERNARDQUATERMASS on 2008-10-02 00:14 ]
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The earliest wheel found in Britain was from Blair Drummond dated approx 1300 BC .I have no problem with blustones being moved great distances ,wheeled or otherwise but am also happy to accept the bluestones were erratics if this can be proved convincingly .
George
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chimera
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 08:45
Without suspension or a flat roadway (for each stone), the weight would bear on 3 wheels. At 50 tons, the great stone would have a loading on each wheel equal to a standard 140 ton rail wagon with 8 wheels. These have axles of 4.5 inch diameter made like this:
[Disclosed is a steel alloy that includes as alloying ingredients carbon, silicon, manganese, aluminum, and oxygen. ..preferably the entire railway wheel, is composed of the disclosed steel composition. ]
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mountainman
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from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 08:55
As far as I know, two different wheely methods have been proposed for shifting both bluestones and sarsens. One is the "merlin wheel" invented by Michael Young -- like two massive cartwheels with struts connecting the rims and a stone where the axle should be. Type in "merlinwheel" on google and it should come up. The other is a sort of frame invented by Dick Parry made of four quarter circumferences clamped on each end of the stone, thereby providing a rolling mechanism. He also suggested ropes would round as on a cotton reel, enabling much easier pulling. But if you know anything about the terrain in West Wales, I fear that the wheel idea is a non-starter. OK on the nice dry downs of Salisbury Plain, maybe...... 
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mountainman
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from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 09:02
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I don't know the Chris Jones paper but would accept stats (athough with misgivings of their use in other areas ) over theory in this case . ........... But even if the axes were being made locally that doesn't make Stonehenge an axe factory .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2008-10-02 07:29 ]
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Chris Jones paper: Jones, C. 2008. Don’t mention Stonehenge! Significance, 5 (1). pp 46 - 48.
I didn't mean that Stonehenge's prime purpose was to be an axe factory -- sorry -- should have made that clearer. What I meant was that axes were made there as an incidental activity, either using spare (smaller) bits of bluestone that were lying around, or during the destruction of stones that seems to have happened from time to time. 
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tiompan
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 11:20
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On 2008-10-02 09:02, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
I don't know the Chris Jones paper but would accept stats (athough with misgivings of their use in other areas ) over theory in this case . ........... But even if the axes were being made locally that doesn't make Stonehenge an axe factory .
George
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2008-10-02 07:29 ]
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Chris Jones paper: Jones, C. 2008. Don’t mention Stonehenge! Significance, 5 (1). pp 46 - 48.
I didn't mean that Stonehenge's prime purpose was to be an axe factory -- sorry -- should have made that clearer. What I meant was that axes were made there as an incidental activity, either using spare (smaller) bits of bluestone that were lying around, or during the destruction of stones that seems to have happened from time to time.
[/quote]
I can't find any reference to axe deposition at Stonehenge but fwiw Josh Pollard mentions that at Woodhenge there were two deposits of rare chalk axes and another group 1 axe from Cornwall discovered by Cunnington .
George
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chimera
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 11:22
Maybe the stones came from an axle factory. End compression of timber allows a load of 18 tons on a post of 7 inches diameter, as in spokes of a wheel. A wheel rim of that width of end-grain sections would carry the weight if the "footprint" on the earth was about 7inches square. A rim of side-ways grain would bear shear pressure so that a 12 inch wide rim on a square "footprint" is needed. And the axle would thus need to be about 14 inch diameter.
With 2 wagons connected by ropes, the front one can be taken empty to the top of a hill then loaded with smaller stones until it can roll forward and pull the back wagon up the hill after it. Possibly a third wagon behind that can be loaded as a drag-weight to keep the speed steady.
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Aluta
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 13:33
I just wonder who got it in their heads to take stones and make such an impressive monument. To me that's the most amazing thing about Stonehenge. There were other stone circles, but Stonehenge, at least in its final form, must have been an instant icon, wonder, and tourist draw. Whoever thought of working the big stones in order to place lintels, I'll bet he (or she) got re-elected!
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karloff
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 14:24
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On 2008-10-02 13:33, Aluta wrote:
I just wonder who got it in their heads to take stones and make such an impressive monument. To me that's the most amazing thing about Stonehenge. There were other stone circles, but Stonehenge, at least in its final form, must have been an instant icon, wonder, and tourist draw. Whoever thought of working the big stones in order to place lintels, I'll bet he (or she) got re-elected!
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Hi
Perhaps someone who liked to travel and saw this
[ This message was edited by: karloff on 2008-10-02 14:25 ]
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coldrum
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| Posted 02-10-2008 at 18:11
More research is needed before we can say for definite one way or the other. They're still trying to work out the extent of the various ice ages and not every-one in the geological world agrees on how many and to what extent the various ice ages were.
And of course we have no idea about the beliefs of our ancient ancestors. To them going out collecting rocks from different areas of Wales might have been part of their belief system. We just don't know.
One thing though is not to underestimate the achievements of our neolithic (and earlier) ancestors.
And take with a pinch of salt any book that claims to solve all the mysteries of Stonehenge, weather it be alternative or orthodox archeology.
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chimera
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 05:45
Karloff,
Have you been drinking and HD driving? Stonh. lintels were 2500, Mycenae was 1000 years later.
[The dry masonry in the nucleus of the pyramid of Pepi I at south Saqqara. He is the 3rd king of the 6th dynasty 2500 BC. Seen over the entrance, a granite lintel spanning the corridor width, ].
Are polished stone axes necessarily an indication that the source stone was sacred ? Stone that survived travel of x miles, and the stress of building work, without cracking, was good stone. Jewellery may of be semi-precious stone, and marble in Rome's churches has semi-sacred effect. Perhaps bluestone etc. is neither common nor sacred, just high status like the priests who needed to impress the pyramid of people.
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AlbertResonox
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 06:39
The recent BBC Timewatch programme on Stonehenge claimed that the "chippings" of bluestone were indicators that "visitors" were flaking off pieces of sacred stone as healing totems/souvenirs...if this was the case....Why would these "sacred chippings" be left lying about?...Surely a lucrative trade item,no matter how small(and some of these pieces were a fair size)wouldn't be left lying around.(Maybe selling them would've been the forerunner of the "chip" shop...I thengyou!!)
People promoting their own theories use evidence to fit their ideas..ignoring the blindingly obvious(they want to read more Conan-Doyle...imo).
To site a stone..a degree of alteration is required to shape it for balancing purposes...hence chippings
Anyway didn't I read on here that only the small bluestones were transported from Wales(whether for magic or decorative purposes I wouldn't begin to guess)...and the larger stones(the impressive ones which the tourists love nowadays and perhaps did way back then too) are local
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chimera
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 07:20
Yes, the chips came with the fissures
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mountainman
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 08:07
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I can't find any reference to axe deposition at Stonehenge but fwiw Josh Pollard mentions that at Woodhenge there were two deposits of rare chalk axes and another group 1 axe from Cornwall discovered by Cunnington .
George
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I agree -- from the maps of axe distribution I've seen they appear to be rather rare in the Salisbury plain area. I think the point being made by Williams-Thorpe, Chris Jones and others is that the Preselite axes found in other parts of England seem to liunk back to the same assemblage of stones as the Stonehenge bluestones. The Preselite axes found in Wales were quite different as a group. That argues for cultural contacts / trading between Stonehenge and other parts of England, but NOT with West Wales. The cultural contacts there seem to have been much more within Wales and with SE Ireland. From what I understand, that seems to match up with the eviodence of other megalithic structures, burial traditions etc. Have I got that right?
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karloff
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 09:16
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On 2008-10-03 05:45, chimera wrote:
Karloff,
Have you been drinking and HD driving? Stonh. lintels were 2500, Mycenae was 1000 years later.
[The dry masonry in the nucleus of the pyramid of Pepi I at south Saqqara. He is the 3rd king of the 6th dynasty 2500 BC. Seen over the entrance, a granite lintel spanning the corridor width, ].
Are polished stone axes necessarily an indication that the source stone was sacred ? Stone that survived travel of x miles, and the stress of building work, without cracking, was good stone. Jewellery may of be semi-precious stone, and marble in Rome's churches has semi-sacred effect. Perhaps bluestone etc. is neither common nor sacred, just high status like the priests who needed to impress the pyramid of people.
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Chimera
Nope, just flipped time and bodies to became Indigo Jones for a moment!
Taking Jacquetta Hawkes' quote literally I decided that we deserve to have the "mysteries of SH" solved by google and photobucket. 
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chimera
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 09:47
Karloff,
That's OK, I enioy a drink myself, but 2 pm is a bit early, moderation and all that. Sometimes I imagine time warps, such that all the empires existed together in Roman times. Explosive comes to mind.
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tiompan
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 17:13
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On 2008-10-03 08:07, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
I can't find any reference to axe deposition at Stonehenge but fwiw Josh Pollard mentions that at Woodhenge there were two deposits of rare chalk axes and another group 1 axe from Cornwall discovered by Cunnington .
George
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I agree -- from the maps of axe distribution I've seen they appear to be rather rare in the Salisbury plain area. I think the point being made by Williams-Thorpe, Chris Jones and others is that the Preselite axes found in other parts of England seem to liunk back to the same assemblage of stones as the Stonehenge bluestones. The Preselite axes found in Wales were quite different as a group. That argues for cultural contacts / trading between Stonehenge and other parts of England, but NOT with West Wales. The cultural contacts there seem to have been much more within Wales and with SE Ireland. From what I understand, that seems to match up with the eviodence of other megalithic structures, burial traditions etc. Have I got that right?
[/quote]
Hello MM cultural contact or lack is difficult to prove in prehistory but I think it's fair to say that within Britain contact between the extremities Orkney, Dorset ,Ireland etc were common place ,pottery styles being an obvious common denominator .You could also add in to the mix the Atlantic countries and central Europe too which supplied the architecture for early tombs and the common artwork in passage graves as well as ,again ,pottery styles , even a posh archer , I doubt if west Wales would be excluded from the mix .
George
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tiompan
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 17:26
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On 2008-10-03 05:45, chimera wrote:
Karloff,
Have you been drinking and HD driving? Stonh. lintels were 2500, Mycenae was 1000 years later.
[The dry masonry in the nucleus of the pyramid of Pepi I at south Saqqara. He is the 3rd king of the 6th dynasty 2500 BC. Seen over the entrance, a granite lintel spanning the corridor width, ].
Are polished stone axes necessarily an indication that the source stone was sacred ? Stone that survived travel of x miles, and the stress of building work, without cracking, was good stone. Jewellery may of be semi-precious stone, and marble in Rome's churches has semi-sacred effect. Perhaps bluestone etc. is neither common nor sacred, just high status like the priests who needed to impress the pyramid of people.
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Hello C , often axes are found as deposits / grave goods that are in perfect shape , unused and expertly finished .These axes are usually from distant sources and usually of inferior quality to the local source . One possible explanation is that they are obviously non-utilitarian and more than likely status symbols /gifts brought from afar and possibly dangerous places like Langdale ,the Alps etc .The source of the axe factories are always more difficult to access than other sites where the quality may be superior .
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chimera
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| Posted 03-10-2008 at 18:27
Tin was going from Cornwall to Germany for faience jewellery which then went in all directions. It would be interesting if status axes came from really long distances. Perhaps distance increased the status?
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