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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Stonehenge Bluestones: New research disproves human transport theory
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Stonehenge Bluestones: New research disproves human transport theory |
Andy B
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from Surrey, UK
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|  Posted 30-09-2008 at 13:27
Dr Brian John writes:
The bluestones used in the iconic megalithic structure at Stonehenge are glacial erratics after all. That is the clear message coming out of new geological research into the nature and provenance of the stones.
In the last few years the bluestones (the smaller stones that stand in the shadows of the mighty trilithons) have been subjected to an unprecedented battery of geological tests, and it is now apparent that they cannot possibly have been collected from West Wales by our Neolithic ancestors. In a number of publications arising from studies by an Open University team, the following results are reported:
** The bluestones have come from at least fifteen different localities in West and South Wales, and other areas as yet unidentified. It is inconceivable that a Neolithic "stone collecting expedition" can have collected all these stones, of many shapes and sizes, from so many different locations.
** The bluestones were present on or near Salisbury Plain at least a thousand years before the first stone monument was built at Stonehenge.
** Some of the bluestones at Stonehenge (for example, made of volcanic ash and soft sandstone) are "rubbish stones" which would never have been selected for incorporation into a megalithic monument. They were used simply because they were conveniently located close to the building site.
** There is no evidence that the "spotted dolerite" so beloved of archaeologists was ever viewed as sacred or magical. It was never used preferentially, either in Wales or Wiltshire, in megalithic structures or burial sites.
** Studies of hand axes made of spotted dolerite and found in England suggest that they were actually made from the same stones that were built into the monument. In other words, Stonehenge was at one time the site of a stone axe factory.
** None of the stone settings at Stonehenge was ever finished. Whatever might have been the grand designs of the "architects", the builders never had enough stones to finish the job.
New research into the glacial history of southern England also suggests that at one time the ice of the great Irish Sea Glacier came in from the west and reached at least as far east as Bath, the Mendip Hills and Glastonbury. It is still uncertain whether the ice covered Salisbury Plain, but it is now thought that an "erratic train" of stones of all shapes and sizes was left in the landscape to the west of Stonehenge. It was an easy matter for the Stonehenge builders to follow this trail westwards, and to collect up one stone after another, until they were all gone.
In a new book to be published shortly, Dr Brian John will report on the new research (some of it previously unpublished) and will challenge many of the assumptions made by archaeologists relating to the transport and use of the bluestones. "For too long," he says, "the world has simply accepted the myth of the human transport of the stones, because we are all reluctant to let the truth get in the way of a good story. But it's now time for this clapped-out theory to be ditched, on the basis that there is just no evidence in support of it. Archaeologists must now accept that there is a massive convergence of evidence showing that these stones were transported by glacier ice."
The new book, entitled "The Bluestone Enigma: Stonehenge, Preseli and the Ice Age", will be published by Greencroft Books in October.
Dr Brian John
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Aluta
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|  Posted 30-09-2008 at 13:40
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
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mountainman
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from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 30-09-2008 at 14:03
Quote:
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On 2008-09-30 13:40, Aluta wrote:
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
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Well, it keeps us all out of mischief anyway. Thanks for posting this, Andy. It will be good to see what constructive comments come from those who know a lot about megalithic structures etc. Leaving erratics on one side for the moment, I'm particularly interested to know if anybody has any evidence that any of the stone settings at Stonehenge was actually completed. As Dr Rob Ixer said not long ago, this was probably the first example of British jerry-building.... 
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chimera
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 08:18
If there were drag marks on the ground behind the morain rocks, then observant people could have connected them with melting glaciers. Then the sun would get the credit for that global warming and the henge was built in favour of climate change.
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 09:14
Quote:
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On 2008-09-30 14:03, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-09-30 13:40, Aluta wrote:
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
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Well, it keeps us all out of mischief anyway. Thanks for posting this, Andy. It will be good to see what constructive comments come from those who know a lot about megalithic structures etc. Leaving erratics on one side for the moment, I'm particularly interested to know if anybody has any evidence that any of the stone settings at Stonehenge was actually completed. As Dr Rob Ixer said not long ago, this was probably the first example of British jerry-building....
[/quote]
Hello MM , we don't know if the settings are complete or not as as we don't have the original plan , if one existed , however it does look like there was plenty of movement of the bluestones within the monument before the present configuration . Brian's bullet points (perhaps your own , the pseodnym being a wee bit of a giveaway )
seem perfectly reasonable . However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
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chimera
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from Australia
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 09:58
A bit off-map, but a polished greenstone axe, as smooth as a metal one, was found on the farm where I grew up in Oz, and the "factory" is located about 20 mi. away from where I live now. These were gifts and highly valued, and the find therefore marks the spot of an Aboriginal murder (for sheep-stealing, probably a British stone-age profession). Presumably, gifts were made at the circular bora dance-grounds, formed by ditch-and-wall. Take your partners for the Stonehenge Astronomers Waltz.
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MuddyMick
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 10:22
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 09:14, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-09-30 14:03, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-09-30 13:40, Aluta wrote:
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
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Well, it keeps us all out of mischief anyway. Thanks for posting this, Andy. It will be good to see what constructive comments come from those who know a lot about megalithic structures etc. Leaving erratics on one side for the moment, I'm particularly interested to know if anybody has any evidence that any of the stone settings at Stonehenge was actually completed. As Dr Rob Ixer said not long ago, this was probably the first example of British jerry-building....
[/quote]
Hello MM , we don't know if the settings are complete or not as as we don't have the original plan , if one existed , however it does look like there was plenty of movement of the bluestones within the monument before the present configuration . Brian's bullet points (perhaps your own , the pseodnym being a wee bit of a giveaway )
seem perfectly reasonable . However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
[/quote]
Are you refering to me old fruit?
I can assure you I am neither mountain man nor am I that closely associated with the work shy 60's throwback with a tenebrous sexual appetite (brigantia)
Regards
MM
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tiompan
Joined:
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Messages: 2658
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 11:14
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 10:22, MuddyMick wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-10-01 09:14, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-09-30 14:03, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
On 2008-09-30 13:40, Aluta wrote:
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
|
|
Well, it keeps us all out of mischief anyway. Thanks for posting this, Andy. It will be good to see what constructive comments come from those who know a lot about megalithic structures etc. Leaving erratics on one side for the moment, I'm particularly interested to know if anybody has any evidence that any of the stone settings at Stonehenge was actually completed. As Dr Rob Ixer said not long ago, this was probably the first example of British jerry-building....
[/quote]
Hello MM , we don't know if the settings are complete or not as as we don't have the original plan , if one existed , however it does look like there was plenty of movement of the bluestones within the monument before the present configuration . Brian's bullet points (perhaps your own , the pseodnym being a wee bit of a giveaway )
seem perfectly reasonable . However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
[/quote]
Are you refering to me old fruit?
I can assure you I am neither mountain man nor am I that closely associated with the work shy 60's throwback with a tenebrous sexual appetite (brigantia)
Regards
MM
[/quote]
There are other MM's too but it was referring to the quoted one. Tenebrous , not what I would associate with P or sexual appetite unless one in holy orders .
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chimera
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from Australia
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 11:25
Is MMick hinting that brigantia will embrace Buddhist celibacy?
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 12:23
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 11:25, chimera wrote:
Is MMick hinting that brigantia will embrace Buddhist celibacy?
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Maybe , if they they celebrate Easter .
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James
Joined:
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Messages: 80
from High Desert
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 15:09
Greetings!
"It is inconceivable that a Neolithic "stone collecting expedition" can have collected all these stones, of many shapes and sizes, from so many different locations."
The "Theory" therefore, does not include all data needed, and falls to ruin along the wayside. One MUST be open to other possibilities, but B.John has that quality of "Open Mouth, Closed Mind" that experts have. He knows HIS field, but disallows others.
"Inconceivable" was not a paradigm of the Megalith Builders.
[ This message was edited by: James on 2008-10-01 15:09 ]
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mountainman
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Messages: 28
from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 17:39
Quote:
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On 2008-09-30 13:40, Aluta wrote:
I am sure this will end all controversy on the subject. Ha ha.
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|
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mountainman
Joined:
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from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 17:49
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 15:09, James wrote:
Greetings!
"It is inconceivable that a Neolithic "stone collecting expedition" can have collected all these stones, of many shapes and sizes, from so many different locations."
The "Theory" therefore, does not include all data needed, and falls to ruin along the wayside. One MUST be open to other possibilities, but B.John has that quality of "Open Mouth, Closed Mind" that experts have. He knows HIS field, but disallows others.
"Inconceivable" was not a paradigm of the Megalith Builders.
-----------------------------
Carefully maintaining anonymity, that's a bit offensive, James. Kindly don't sling mud about. Let's hear your arguments, instead of insults. We are all, I hope, open to other possibilities. Would you kindly explain for all of us how and why Neolithic men are supposed to have visited 15 or more sites as widely separated as the North Pembs coast and the Brecon Beacons, just in order to collect up a strange assortment of stones of all lithologies and all shapes and sizes? Since you seem to know the Neolithic mind rather well, kindly enlighten us......
It's strange how those who challenge orthodoxy and fundamentalism often have to put up with abuse, isn't it?
[ This message was edited by: James on 2008-10-01 15:09 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 17:50
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 15:09, James wrote:
Greetings!
"It is inconceivable that a Neolithic "stone collecting expedition" can have collected all these stones, of many shapes and sizes, from so many different locations."
The "Theory" therefore, does not include all data needed, and falls to ruin along the wayside. One MUST be open to other possibilities, but B.John has that quality of "Open Mouth, Closed Mind" that experts have. He knows HIS field, but disallows others.
"Inconceivable" was not a paradigm of the Megalith Builders.
[ This message was edited by: James on 2008-10-01 15:09 ]
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I agree but similarly "inconceivable was not a paradigm of the megalith builders " is in the same category .
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mountainman
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 17:58
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However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
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Not my idea, MM. This comes from Olwen Williams -Thorpe et al, who found that the Preselite hand axes found in England seem to have come from the same assemblage of bluestones as are found in the Stonehenge monoliths. The Welsh Preselite axe heads are from a different and more varied group of outcrops. So there are two possibilities: either the axe heads were made from the smaller erratics within a glacial erratic assemblage at or near Stonehenge, or the axe heads have actually been made from bluestones that were being broken up at Stonehenge, maybe in association with changes in stone settings. Does anybody know whether these axes have been dated (by type or contexts) -- which might enable them to be tied in to the radiocarbon dated SAtonehenmge phases? 
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 18:22
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 17:58, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
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Not my idea, MM. This comes from Olwen Williams -Thorpe et al, who found that the Preselite hand axes found in England seem to have come from the same assemblage of bluestones as are found in the Stonehenge monoliths. The Welsh Preselite axe heads are from a different and more varied group of outcrops. So there are two possibilities: either the axe heads were made from the smaller erratics within a glacial erratic assemblage at or near Stonehenge, or the axe heads have actually been made from bluestones that were being broken up at Stonehenge, maybe in association with changes in stone settings. Does anybody know whether these axes have been dated (by type or contexts) -- which might enable them to be tied in to the radiocarbon dated SAtonehenmge phases?
[/quote]
The axes themselves can't be dated from the petrology but it is possible to date , say , the peat surrounding debitage .The axes have been given groups according to their petrology e.g. Creag na Caillich implements belong to group XXIV ..Clough & Cummins have written on "Stone axe studies " and the Bradley& Edmonds "Reinterpreting the Axe trade " is also recommended .
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James
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from High Desert
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 19:05
Greetings!
Let me just say, without any "mud-slinging" that "inconceivable" got my attention, and prompted my reply.
The idea that the Megalith builders were unable to transport large stones over great distance somehow proves their glaciation theory is interesting, to say the least.
Now, I`m sorry that you became upset by my opinion, but where I live, opinions are valuable-but because you have a different opinion, somehow you insist that I must present a comprehensive theory in opposition.
So I shall! My education in Ancient Cultures will help, and the fact that I`m a Stone-Mason might give me needed insights, but now I`ll have to do the field work.
I`ll start the work right now, and get back to you in about....10 years.
Thanks for YOUR opinion.
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tiompan
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 20:04
Quote:
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On 2008-10-01 17:58, mountainman wrote:
[quote]
However I wouldn't consider Stonehenge an axe factory , possibly the site where axes may have been exchanged or gifted as has been suggested for other henges or major stone circles . The axe factory would have been close to the source of the stone as is the case with the few we know of e.g. Langdale , Creag na Caillaich .Quality doesn't appear to be important , possibly the source and amount of work invested was what mattered .
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Not my idea, MM. This comes from Olwen Williams -Thorpe et al, who found that the Preselite hand axes found in England seem to have come from the same assemblage of bluestones as are found in the Stonehenge monoliths. The Welsh Preselite axe heads are from a different and more varied group of outcrops. So there are two possibilities: either the axe heads were made from the smaller erratics within a glacial erratic assemblage at or near Stonehenge, or the axe heads have actually been made from bluestones that were being broken up at Stonehenge, maybe in association with changes in stone settings. Does anybody know whether these axes have been dated (by type or contexts) -- which might enable them to be tied in to the radiocarbon dated SAtonehenmge phases?
[/quote]
ooops just realised that I didn't reply to the two possibilities . My guess is that it is more likely the axes would have been fashioned in Wales not Stonehenge . The axes themselves would not necessarilly have been that good quality ,it is likely that it was where they came from that made them important . It is common to find such axes unused in deposits or grave goods , sometimes deliberately broken . When better quality axes are available in areas where the imported are found , and the imports are unused it suggests that the imports are not utilitarian and could be viewed as prestige goods / gifts etc their value found in their workmanship and distant source . If they were fashioned locally they would have little value particularly if they weren't any good at their job.
George
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mountainman
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from Pembrokeshire
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 20:44
Thanks George
Interesting. Hmmm.. I'm not convinced that these (ie the English) Preselite axes were made in Wales. Prof Chris Jones did a statistical analysis and found it highly improbable that the matches would be as good as they are unless the English axes had come from the Stonehenge assemblage of stones. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If you don't know the refs, I'll dig them out...
James, all peace and light again. That's fine! By the way, I didn't say that the Megalith builders were unable to transport large stones over great distances, and that that somehow proves the glaciation theory. With all due respect, you are putting words into my mouth. I think it's possible that they carried them 10,20,30 km -- that would be pretty impressive anyway. What I was talking about was the wide variety of bluestone source locations and highly varied and difficult terrain. And the glacial transport theory is based on a great deal of evidence -- much of it already in the literature.
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James
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from High Desert
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| Posted 01-10-2008 at 21:21
Greetings!
Good enough, and, my original reading of the article was not complete-as I am dashing in and out doing several tasks at once, which means none of them are getting done in the right manner-and that includes my first post.
Sorry about that!
I do similar work out here in the Great Desert Southwest, examing chips from tool-making sites, and determining origins.
We have found many trade-routes previously thought impossible, but now verified. We had a bit of glaciation out here too, but that`s as it may be.
Am following the Axe thread with quiet interest-
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