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sem
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from Bridgend,S.Wales
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|  Posted 29-03-2008 at 23:57
I don't know if this post belongs "down below", but I have just been reading about ochre representing blood, an archaeological theory that I have long believed in. Then I realised that the last time I saw my own blood was after an operation on 07/07. You ladies see it every month!
Is it blood or menstrual blood that is sacred?
I'm beginning to believe it's the latter.
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brigantia
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| Posted 30-03-2008 at 00:52
Hi Sem!
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On 2008-03-29 23:57, sem wrote:
I don't know if this post belongs "down below", but I have just been reading about ochre representing blood, an archaeological theory that I have long believed in. Then I realised that the last time I saw my own blood was after an operation on 07/07. You ladies see it every month!
Is it blood or menstrual blood that is sacred?
I'm beginning to believe it's the latter. |
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Blood in itself is sacred, but menstrual blood has a pedigree of its own in archaic traditional societies. It's very likely that certain circles were used as places for menstrual rites. The huge variety of traditional religious associations between menstrual blood and the moon is well known. There's some good material written on this from our anthroplogical mates. Check out Chris Knight's Blood Relations: Menstruation and the Origins of Culture as a damn good starter. There's quite a few more along this line, like the more biocentric Wise Wound of Shuttle & Redgroves. Then of course Mr Eliade furnishes many examples of menstrual rites in traditional cultures.
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AngieLake
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|  Posted 30-03-2008 at 23:05
There was a re-run of Michael Palin's 'Himalaya' prog recently, showing a cut off tribe in the mountains who had lived with different traditions and culture than those in the rest of the area.
One thing they did that surprised Palin, was shutting away the womenfolk when they had their periods, or when they had given birth. There was a separate enclosure and living area for them then.
When they were reunited with their family and homes there was a fascinating little ceremony that involved a fire, which the 'priest'/'shaman'/whatever, chanted over. [Did the woman have to jump over it too...???]
(That's what I think happened anyway. Maybe someone else saw it and will correct me if I'm wrong? I can't recall the name of the tribe, but am sure they were facially different, too, as if they'd been a hidden tribe.)
*It's also possible it was Michael Wood's 'India' prog, not Palin's 'Himalaya!*
On my other Forum subject, I wonder if the Red Jasper stone from Ding Dong mine would have been a representation of such blood to the ancients of that area in the Bronze Age, and used in any ceremonies at the many circles, etc, around Men an Tol / Boskednan area?
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AngieLake
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| Posted 30-03-2008 at 23:12
On 2008-03-29 23:57, sem wrote:
I don't know if this post belongs "down below", but I have just been reading about ochre representing blood, an archaeological theory that I have long believed in. Then I realised that the last time I saw my own blood was after an operation on 07/07. You ladies see it every month!
Is it blood or menstrual blood that is sacred?
I'm beginning to believe it's the latter.
Hi sem
So, if the 'Red Lady' of Paviland was covered in red ochre (IIRC), then maybe that represented the blood that covers a new baby, and it mimicked a 'returning to the womb' of the Earth Mother, or actual 'rebirth'?
By the way, 'Crones' like me don't see red every month!!... only when they get their phone bills, etc!! 
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sem
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| Posted 31-03-2008 at 01:38
It was the "Red Lady" that triggered the thought. Next time you visit we'll go and see her in Cardiff Museum, but don't expect too much.
She's not tall (shorter than Caroline in fact), hasn't got a cleavage to write home about (just a couple of rib bones) and like most of the female population of Cardiff has lost her head and been chewed on by animals.
Sorry Ang, maybe that was too sick.
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Jimit
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| Posted 31-03-2008 at 09:24
The "Red "Lady" of Paviland" was a man.
Jim.
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AngieLake
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| Posted 31-03-2008 at 10:11
On 2008-03-31 09:24, Jimit wrote:
The "Red "Lady" of Paviland" was a man.
Jim.
Hi Jim
Yes, I remember reading that, hence the inverted commas around 'Red Lady' in my post. I'm sure sem knows that too. BTW, how did they prove such an old body was definitely male?
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cropredy
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| Posted 31-03-2008 at 22:31
AngieLake,
To prove if the body was male or female , they will have tested for certain things.
snips and snails and puppy dogs tails must have been more evident than sugar and spice.
Thats how these experts work you know.
Don't forget the red horse vale up here near tysoe, where the battle of Edgehill was fought, very red then.
There was five huge figures right along the escarpment of Edgehill, the enclosure act saw off the last one.
The villagers of Tysoe used to scour out the hill figure during a may festival each year.
Tysoe was the abode of the knights templars, blood , blood everywhere?
Kevin
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sem
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| Posted 01-04-2008 at 00:49
Apologies Jim, I was assuming everyone knew she was a man. Incidently the finder, Dean William Buckland, came to the conclusion that she was a Roman camp follower (ie whore).
Cropredy (as in a very old joke) if sugar and spice, why the taste of fish?
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sem
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| Posted 08-04-2008 at 00:25
Just rooting through references to this subject I found a beauty in Richard Rudgley's "Lost Civlisations of the Stone Age."
"Art that most probably dates from the Upper Paleolithic ...Urals, Russia. ....is a female figure with 28 red dots between her legs."
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karloff
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| Posted 08-04-2008 at 11:00
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On 2008-03-31 10:11, AngieLake wrote:
On 2008-03-31 09:24, Jimit wrote:
The "Red "Lady" of Paviland" was a man.
Jim.
Hi Jim
Yes, I remember reading that, hence the inverted commas around 'Red Lady' in my post. I'm sure sem knows that too. BTW, how did they prove such an old body was definitely male?
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Angie
Not sure if you are asking this with tongue firmly in cheek but I'm going to answer it anyway, so sorry if I'm preaching to the choir.
Sexing a human skeleton is normally pretty straight forward if certain bone elements are present and preserved. Females have a less curved sacrum (the fused five bones at the base of the spine) and a larger sciatic notch (on the "inside" of the blades of the pelvis), which effectively increase the size of the "gap" in the pelvis to enable childbirth. Also females have a "heart shaped" jaw with a reasnably flat foreheafd while males generally have larger and "squarer" jaws with more robust mandible ramus as well as a more sloping forehead with larger supra orbital ridges. If both pelvis and skull are present in a burial you have a 90% chance of correctly sexing the individual just on these non-metric traits. If you also use metric traits such as the external auditory meatus (which shows significant sexual dimorphism) then you have practically a 99% probability of correctly sexing a skeleton.
If you look around at mens heads and compare them with womens you can see that the sloping compared to flat foreheads is a pretty prevelant trait. try it and see!
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AngieLake
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| Posted 09-04-2008 at 00:55
Hi Karloff
No - tongue firmly out of cheek.... I was just being lazy! [Or 'lay'- zee?] I hated history and biology at school, and have never had archaeology training. If I could turn back time - as Cher says - I would go to Uni and study it properly. Oh how different life would be with the benefit of hindsight!
I've watched lots of TV progs in the past (like 'Meet the Ancestors'), but couldn't remember the details of how they test for the difference between the sexes. It hasn't been an issue before, or I'd have looked it up.
Another thing that made me query it was the fact that for years the experts believed it to be a woman, so I wonder when they decided otherwise?
Thanks for the explanation - most useful. We ought to keep it somewhere on Meg P under an easy-to-access heading, so we can find it quickly if we need to remind ourselves.
There won't be any doubt about which sex Tommy Lee Jones is, if he gets dug up in 1000 yrs time! I like him... must be my primal tastes! My sciatic notch came in handy three times, too!
PS: In laymens' terms, what is "the external auditory meatus" and what is "dimorphism"? (It IS late now, and I can't be bothered to dig out the dictionary, and I don't think everyone who reads the Forum is familiar with these terms.) 
Thanks again Karloff! 
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karloff
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| Posted 09-04-2008 at 11:31
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On 2008-04-09 00:55, AngieLake wrote:
Hi Karloff
No - tongue firmly out of cheek.... I was just being lazy! [Or 'lay'- zee?] I hated history and biology at school, and have never had archaeology training. If I could turn back time - as Cher says - I would go to Uni and study it properly. Oh how different life would be with the benefit of hindsight!
I've watched lots of TV progs in the past (like 'Meet the Ancestors'), but couldn't remember the details of how they test for the difference between the sexes. It hasn't been an issue before, or I'd have looked it up.
Another thing that made me query it was the fact that for years the experts believed it to be a woman, so I wonder when they decided otherwise?
Thanks for the explanation - most useful. We ought to keep it somewhere on Meg P under an easy-to-access heading, so we can find it quickly if we need to remind ourselves.
There won't be any doubt about which sex Tommy Lee Jones is, if he gets dug up in 1000 yrs time! I like him... must be my primal tastes! My sciatic notch came in handy three times, too!
PS: In laymens' terms, what is "the external auditory meatus" and what is "dimorphism"? (It IS late now, and I can't be bothered to dig out the dictionary, and I don't think everyone who reads the Forum is familiar with these terms.)
Thanks again Karloff!
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Hi Angie
The external auditory meatus (in terms of skeletal analysis) is a bony growth on the side of your head (the temporal bone) associated with your ear hole (meatus actualy means opening). Dimorphism in biology terms (it means slightly different thing in each science) just means observable differences between two distinct forms of the same species, so in this case sexual dimorphism means the differences between men and women. These are of course much more noticeable on fleshed individuals as I'm sure members of the forum have noticed (particularly in summer when clothes get smaller and tighter
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AngieLake
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| Posted 09-04-2008 at 23:57
Aaahhhh, thanks for explaining Karloff! Now I know what you mean.
As regards the difference between fleshed individuals, esp in Summer:....
Tim P did post a pic he'd taken of me dowsing in the churchyard at Mallwyd in June last year, which shocked me when I realised how b..... tight my clothes were getting! 
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chimera
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| Posted 22-04-2008 at 11:11
The People's Flag is of the Deepest Red so it's strange that red is auspicious for Chinese. Maybe the ogres in Tibet are ok with blood sacrifice.
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nickp
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|  Posted 22-04-2008 at 15:13
isn't the cross of st george supposed to represent menstrual blood and semen?! (or have i been reading the wrong kind of 'art magazines'??!!)
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brigantia
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| Posted 22-04-2008 at 16:04
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On 2008-04-22 15:13, nickp wrote:
isn't the cross of st george supposed to represent menstrual blood and semen?! (or have i been reading the wrong kind of 'art magazines'??!!)
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Bloody 'ell fire Nick!!! Where did you get that from??? (like the sound of it though)
Cheers - Paul
PS - Wednesday evening, Vanilla Bar, 101 North Street, Keighley (next door to Witherspoons) - Man Utd semi-final European Cup game. If yer doing nowt see if you can gerrin there (I'm the long-haired scrawny loud-mouthed one shouting his tits off ... & I'm not even a Man U fan!)
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chimera
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| Posted 23-04-2008 at 08:18
St George had some blood on his pole when he bipped the dragon, female evidently. The Flag of Georgia (Black Sea) is interesting, and that region is near Colchis where Jason and Argonauts spilt dragon blood. If patriotic Britons wore blue woad, with a protective red cross on top outlined by white pipeclay, then the union was possible without the bloodshed.
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nickp
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| Posted 23-04-2008 at 14:27
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On 2008-04-23 08:18, chimera wrote:
If patriotic Britons wore blue woad, with a protective red cross on top outlined by white pipeclay, then the union was possible without the bloodshed.
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interesting theory chimera, but were does the red cross for protection come from? i've never heard of prehistoric britons using the cross as a protectorative symbol, but it'd be nice to think it's feasable that they'd pre-empt the union flag by a couple of thousand years, purely by accident!!
Nik P.
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Mikki
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| Posted 23-04-2008 at 14:36
Quote:
| On 2008-04-22 15:13, nickp wrote:
isn't the cross of st george supposed to represent menstrual blood and semen?! (or have i been reading the wrong kind of 'art magazines'??!!)
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Very true.... well it did for me this morning!!! 
St George has got alot of explaining to do.
[ This message was edited by: Mikki on 2008-04-23 14:41 ]
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