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Stone Lord: The Legend Of King Arthur, The Era Of Stonehenge by J P Reedman |
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Stones Forum >> Equinox
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ragnarok
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|  Posted 03-10-2007 at 16:15
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On 2007-10-03 14:42, bat400 wrote:
There's a lot of oral history of historic Puebloans that solar alignments with public buildings and other structures was celebratory and not deterministic. The "sun watcher" or "sun priest" was responsible for predicting the day future day on which the solar limit would occur so that arrangements could be made for "revealing" it to participants in so many days time. Not because they didn't know it was coming up, but because it would be "an event" that some or all people needed to participate in on the same day.
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I can quite understand the possibilities of this when applied to stone circles. Many people believe that some of our circles had a trading or meeting purpose, this would have to be set up on some sort of time basis. So perhaps some of these stone 'markers' were sun orientated to times of the year when these meetings were to take place & copied on smaller regional circles as a reminder to them when this event/meeting was at the main venue. (Sorry haven't expressed that very well - too many distractions).
Still would've thought that when the sun was to the NE would be a prime time but results, so far, don't appear to indicate this. SE & North are still favourites, SE is more understandable than North I think.
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ragnarok
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 16:52
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On 2007-10-03 15:13, brigantia wrote:
[quote]
If you can get a grip of the cosmology of airts, shamanism (time was measured by night, not day, and the Pole Star was of primal importance) and cyclical time instead of linear time, you'll find many of your queries along these lines developing much quicker. Also - which archaeoastronomy texts are you using?
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Is there any reason to suppose or support that our stone circle builders measured night time?
Would you mind explaining how was this done please?
How would the pole star be of importance to them? ( I realize that it's a fixed North point - presently Polaris 1deg off North). Particularly as the rather insignificant star Thuban (Draconis) was the pole star back then - which I've been told is very difficult to spot with just the naked eye?
I'm using info sent by an archaeoastronomer, plus a copy of the astro program supplied by the makers of quality, home use, telescopes & a book by Mr. Moore. I try to verify points with them all where possible.
The references to my orientated markers (Entrances, Significant Stones & Outlyers) are taken from one of Aubrey Burls books - some I have verified myself on site, recalibrating magnetic north to true north - degrees/info supplied by O.S. for current difference at time of survey.
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cropredy
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 17:56
Ragnarok,
" Difficult too see with just the naked eye"
Maybe, just maybe?, they weren't looking with their naked eye's.
Remember that an alignment go's from infinity to infinity, so look to the dark side, but not with your eye's as they can't see in the dark.
kevin
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tiompan
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 18:13
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On 2007-10-03 15:42, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
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Thanks for the info tiompan.
Why would you think any were orientated to the North?
Those that are orientated away from the northern quarter - is there any preferred direction?
I forget, how often does the major northern & southern moon occur?
Sorry to say that I don't quite grab the significance of the 'line' between centre of Castlerigg to Ring of Brodgar.
"Other regional features are apparent in Gwynedd (Wales) being that many are ellipse/oval with the long axis running ESE - WNW.
However Cerrig Arthur's long axis runs SE - NW.
The ESE - WNW has been mentioned by some as marking the night of Beltane, the May day festival of fire. I have to say I find this idea quite odd as I cannot see how the builders would've known about a considerably much later Celtic celebrated date & that date wouldn't account for the ESE bit.
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As well as an astro explanation there is always the "echoing the landscape " one and others that havn't been considered yet . It looks like you can find orientations on every point of the compass with fewer to the north .When it come to clusters of orientations it is usually in association with a particular monument type e.g. RSC 's which favour a S-SW orientation but more importantly the declinations are often around -30 suggesting an interest in the moon although some are way below this declination . The maj and min moons occur every 18.6 years with close occurrences every month for about a year . I mentioned the Castlerigg line as it is very close to due north and the that is the approx orientation from the centre of Castlerigg to the "entrance " . I am quite scecptical about lots of archaeoastronomy and the concept of cross quarter day alignments as possible remnants of a calendar similar to the celtic one is not supported by much hard evidence in my view .
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ragnarok
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 18:50
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On 2007-10-03 18:13, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
I am quite scecptical about lots of archaeoastronomy and the concept of cross quarter day alignments as possible remnants of a calendar similar to the celtic one is not supported by much hard evidence in my view .
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Good - so am I!
Trouble is I'm also getting very sceptical regarding most stone circle sun or moon alignments claimed as being deliberate homage to that particular rising/setting of sun or moon.
If we go back to basics, as in Carrowmore, they were simply burial places. All across the land circles have been excavated to reveal cremations & burials - many under the actual stones themselves. Perhaps the stones were simply just gravestones?
The circle shape representing the continuing cycle of life/death.
Perhaps any remarkable stone marked an important persons grave.
And the larger circles were the meeting/trading places - as already posted.
Maybe it should also be noted that these people well might have needed simple direction markers to the next settlement, river, pub. (as indeed I need myself!)
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tiompan
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 19:35
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On 2007-10-03 18:50, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
Good - so am I!
Trouble is I'm also getting very sceptical regarding most stone circle sun or moon alignments claimed as being deliberate homage to that particular rising/setting of sun or moon.
If we go back to basics, as in Carrowmore, they were simply burial places. All across the land circles have been excavated to reveal cremations & burials - many under the actual stones themselves. Perhaps the stones were simply just gravestones?
The circle shape representing the continuing cycle of life/death.
Perhaps any remarkable stone marked an important persons grave.
And the larger circles were the meeting/trading places - as already posted.
Maybe it should also be noted that these people well might have needed simple direction markers to the next settlement, river, pub. (as indeed I need myself!)
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It is difficult to prove intention but there are too many well attested astro sites world wide to ignore them , it then becomes a matter of faith and where you draw the line (no pun) . Many of the circles never had burials and in those that did the deposits were token , often the cemetery is close by ,and some burials were much later additions to the monument . What is becoming more apparent is that the erection of the stones around a burial or otherwise was the last act in the architecture of the monument .
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ragnarok
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| Posted 03-10-2007 at 23:20
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On 2007-10-03 19:35, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
Many of the circles never had burials and in those that did the deposits were token , often the cemetery is close by ,and some burials were much later additions to the monument . What is becoming more apparent is that the erection of the stones around a burial or otherwise was the last act in the architecture of the monument .
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You don't think that much of any burial/cremation evidence has been completely lost at many sites across the country? By things like farming methods & grave robbers and that perhaps soil conditions were not suitable for preservation i.e. all evidence has simply rotted away?
I know I've read recently about cremations being found directly under stones, in other words, the stone has been erected deliberately over the cremation/burial pit. (Cannot remember which site, or sites, just now.)
I take it that no one has considered that there could've been two distinct types of circles, one for burial/funeral rites the other as a trading/meeting/celebratory venue?
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brigantia
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| Posted 04-10-2007 at 09:41
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I take it that no one has considered that there could've been two distinct types of circles, one for burial/funeral rites the other as a trading/meeting/celebratory venue?
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And more. We have the Roms Law or Grubstones circle on Ilkley Moor as a distinct death/burial site. The nearby Twelve Apostles as a meeting/celebratory site. The denuded Backstone circle as a ritual site. Other archaeologists and have previously thought differing functions at different sites.
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karloff
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| Posted 04-10-2007 at 10:51
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On 2007-10-04 09:41, brigantia wrote:
[quote]
I take it that no one has considered that there could've been two distinct types of circles, one for burial/funeral rites the other as a trading/meeting/celebratory venue?
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And more. We have the Roms Law or Grubstones circle on Ilkley Moor as a distinct death/burial site. The nearby Twelve Apostles as a meeting/celebratory site. The denuded Backstone circle as a ritual site. Other archaeologists and have previously thought differing functions at different sites.
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Hi Chaps
There is a lot of evidence to indicate that some Neolithic and Bronze Age monuments have both solar and lunar alignments.
I think its probably better to divide up monuments into types and chronologically when interpreting their use. Causewayed camps (early Neolithic, first real monuments in Britain alongside with Chambered tombs), Henge monuments (just a ovoid bank and ditch), Stone circles, Round barrows (sometimes called ringditches when the mound have been ploughed/eroded away).
A really interesting fact is that throughout most of the Neolithic basically rectangular chambered tombs and rectalinear monuments (such as Cursus) were built and people lived in rectangular longhouses. Causwayed camps are the unusual monument and are in sharp contrast to all of the others. Interestingly these particular monuments are interprested as places where disparate peoples (eg. different clans or tribes) could meet in "neutral terratory".
In the Late Neo/Early BA people started constructing round barrows, Henges, Stone circles etc. The circular shape takes over at the same time people started living in roundhouses!
Hmmm anybody see a connection there?
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ragnarok
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| Posted 04-10-2007 at 14:27
Thanks brigantia & karloff for info. Brig have you further info on night-time hours being noted? Sounds quite an interesting concept. (If not - doesn't matter, I'll try to look it up sometime.)
I know the following 'survey' is very, very basic but perhaps it provides a general guide to the popularity of alignments?
(I've just used info from individual stone circles; again using entrances, significant stones & outlyers.)
Early period circles (late Neo to early BA): -
Alignment markers most common to SE.
Followed by North & West.
Middle period circles:-
Alignment markers most common to SW.
Followed by NE & East.
Late period circles:-
Alignment markers most common to SW.
Followed by NE & SSW.
(no markers from ESE to SSE)
On the face of it, it appears that the preference for mid-winter sunrise was replaced by mid-winter sunset.
North, or close to, is represented in all periods, I'm still pondering on this - so any more ideas please?
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Walrus
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 01:31
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On 2007-10-03 15:13, brigantia wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-10-02 21:00, ragnarok wrote:
However the Sun doesn't/hasn't passed through North, via NNW - NNE from NW - NE. So why the significance of 'marker' points in this quarter of direction points? Any ideas please?
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If you can get a grip of the cosmology of airts, shamanism (time was measured by night, not day, and the Pole Star was of primal importance) and cyclical time instead of linear time, you'll find many of your queries along these lines developing much quicker. Also - which archaeoastronomy texts are you using?
[/quote]
The northpoint's useful for night timekeeping by star transits, as well as direction finding for the initiated. Ever noticed the recurring shapes of megaliths in circles? The ones which mirror the horizon, the pointed ones indicating other sacred sites, the notch for the moonrise, the socket which may have held an oil lamp?
[ This message was edited by: Walrus on 2007-10-20 01:35 ]
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ragnarok
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 12:18
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On 2007-10-20 01:31, Walrus wrote:
[quote]
The northpoint's useful for night timekeeping by star transits, as well as direction finding for the initiated. Ever noticed the recurring shapes of megaliths in circles? The ones which mirror the horizon, the pointed ones indicating other sacred sites, the notch for the moonrise, the socket which may have held an oil lamp?
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Interesting ideas. How would they time-keep star transits without clocks? A star rises approx 4 mins earlier each night - but we only know that because we have clock time to refer to. Also why would they want to? What use would it be?
Direction finding I always thought that a possibility but now unsure whether they could've picked up on Thuban.
I know I keep labouring this point but the horizon we see today is hardly likely to be the horizon they saw because of tree/shrub cover at many sites.
Therefore I'm dubious about notch alignments & as the Moon rises/sets on a different spot every day/night and doesn't go as far as True North. (Major Moonrise/set is indeed probable at specific sites.)
Cannot say that I've noticed any potential lamp sockets.
Yes I think there are definite marker stones which indicate another site, as do many entrances. I've been trying to ascertain if there's some sort of standardised pattern to this but with so many sites long gone it's like attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing! However I have made some headway.
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Walrus
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 13:09
There's a stone in Barbrook 1 with a notched top which aligns to misummer full moon max, as for notch alignments on the horizon, it depends where you are. Most Peak District sites are at 800-1,000 ft altitude which is more or less above the treeline, and IIRC the pollen analysis from the Gardoms Edge dig indicated little tree cover on the gritstone moors at the appropriate time.
"Lamp Holders" seem fairly common in Derbyshire, I can't offhand remember any in Cornwall or Brittany where I've done some exploring.
Forgot the important bit! - The timing can be regulated by reference to the polar star clock - you look at the pointers in the plough relative to the (current) pole star. The position moves full circle in 1 year for a given time, if you know the season then the star transits will fine tune the timing. I wonder if this was used as an early warning of rising events.
[ This message was edited by: Walrus on 2007-10-20 13:14 ]
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ragnarok
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 15:48
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On 2007-10-20 13:09, Walrus wrote:
There's a stone in Barbrook 1 with a notched top which aligns to misummer full moon max, as for notch alignments on the horizon, it depends where you are. Most Peak District sites are at 800-1,000 ft altitude which is more or less above the treeline, and IIRC the pollen analysis from the Gardoms Edge dig indicated little tree cover on the gritstone moors at the appropriate time.
"Lamp Holders" seem fairly common in Derbyshire, I can't offhand remember any in Cornwall or Brittany where I've done some exploring.
Forgot the important bit! - The timing can be regulated by reference to the polar star clock - you look at the pointers in the plough relative to the (current) pole star. The position moves full circle in 1 year for a given time, if you know the season then the star transits will fine tune the timing. I wonder if this was used as an early warning of rising events.
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Which stone are you referring to please? I am familiar with this site & others in area. The largest stone is to the SW.
What you refer to as 'lamp holders' I see as weathering of naturally formed indentations (perhaps from a discarded pebble, or just a softer area of the rock) which hundreds of years of water & wind ingress have deepened and enlarged.
Would the pollen counts from Gardoms Edge be applicable to this part of Big Moor? Has no one done a pollen analysis of BM itself?
From memory it's quite peaty which may indicate some loss of forestation by moss. There are the remains of tree stumps near Barbrook 3. Then there's large shrubs to consider. Don't forget that the tree line was higher than it is today - higher than this moors highest point at about 1100 ft.
Froggatt Edge, despite appearing to be poor soil, has some substantial trees growing on it today.
Do you know how old the field systems are on the opposite side of the moor to Barbrook3 - near Curbar, by any chance?
Yes Dubhe & Merak point towards Polaris. However did Thuban have a distinct reference? Still do not think there would've been any need for them to make any star reference markers/alignments - which rising events would they need any form of early warning for? ( With particular reference to North)
Yes I forgot to include the most important bits too!....must be catching 
[ This message was edited by: ragnarok on 2007-10-20 17:23 ]
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Walrus
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 18:39
The notched stone is to the SE, aimed roughly towards the ridge which hides Ramsley Reservoir. There are also some cup marks on the stone which indicates the moonset on the same night, the little flat topped one in line with the distant flat topped hill with the trees on top. (Alec Low?)
Aah, here we are, notched stone 7. Barnatt has it as a sunrise line for midwinter. From several decades of observation I beg to differ. Cupmarks on stone 9, there are what I call lamp sockets on stone 10 and stone 12, the Mayday/Lammas stone. The latter is a shape which seems to recur fairly frequently. Add on:- I see no reason why the shape shouldn't be natural. It's easier to choose a stone than to shape one with the technology of 4,000 years ago (ish).
Another addition you can see the location of the Gardoms Edge dig from Barbrook 1, about a mile across/down the valley, I'd expect the pollen distribution to be very similar.
[ This message was edited by: Walrus on 2007-10-20 18:42 ] 
[ This message was edited by: Walrus on 2007-10-20 22:16 ]
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Walrus
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| Posted 20-10-2007 at 18:53
Which rising events would they need early warning for... That's speculative but we could start with a moonrise in eclipse mode. A star transit to the north can indicate a rising somewhere else in the sky. Then there's my little hobbyhorse
1/25000 map. Draw a line from Arbor Low to the Peak Cavern, then join Arbor Low to Hordron Edge, to the Bullring, to Wet Withens, to Edale Cross (yes I know but humour me) and back to Arbor Low. Don't answer me until you've done it. The only way to set that out to the indicated accuracy (I'm assuming Edale Cross to be on a destroyed circle site) is by pairs of stars sighted relative to the centreline of the figure using a small flame at a distance as a foresight.
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tiompan
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| Posted 21-10-2007 at 10:50
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On 2007-10-20 18:53, Walrus wrote:
. Draw a line from Arbor Low to the Peak Cavern, then join Arbor Low to Hordron Edge, to the Bullring, to Wet Withens, to Edale Cross (yes I know but humour me) and back to Arbor Low. Don't answer me until you've done it. The only way to set that out to the indicated accuracy (I'm assuming Edale Cross to be on a destroyed circle site) is by pairs of stars sighted relative to the centreline of the figure using a small flame at a distance as a foresight.
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Hello Walrus , there are a couple of distances between sites that are worth noting Arbor Low - Bull Ring and Arbor Low - Wet Withens differs by about 50 metres . Arbor Low - Edale Cross & Arbor Low - Hordron Edge is out by 74 metres but considering the diameters of the monuments and the distances involved , approx 17k and 24 k ,that's not bad . The "parallelogram " is less convincing , smaller distances and bigger "errors" .Peak cavern - Hordron Edge at 57 .459 degrees is quite close to the azimuth of a minor standstill as is Peak cavern - Bull Ring at 238.015 degrees .
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Walrus
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| Posted 21-10-2007 at 16:38
The symmetry of the pentagram is close enough that I originally plotted it on a 1/25,000 map on a large drawing table, took a tracing, turned the tracing over upside down & re-fitted it. I couldn't fault the fitting when I pricked the tracing positions through to the original with a fine needle. I know us mine surveyors were a bit good but that's an impressive bit of setting out by the "Old Men".
[ This message was edited by: Walrus on 2007-10-21 16:40 ]
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ragnarok
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| Posted 21-10-2007 at 19:13
Walrus,
Re SE stone at Barbrook - from memory this is soft red sandstone? It shows no sign of burning, which I'm pretty sure would still be apparent from the use of Tallow (rendered animal fat) which is quite volatile - would spit out of any container.....so I'll stick to natural weathering of rock.
Alignments to the moon are not straight forward. For example the nearest full moon to this years Summer Solstice was 9 days after & the moon rose nearly half way between SE - SSE (nearer SE) here. However in 1800b.c. the nearest full moon was 3 days before the SS & it rose exactly half way between SE - ESE. Quite a difference!
As for any alignments to the May day sun.....how? How would they have known when the 1st of May was? Despite the fact that this is a much later Celtic festival the position of the sunrise/set has no significance.
By your pentagram you are advocating that the builders of Wet Withens & 7 stones of Hordron took into account the distance between Arbor Low & The Bullring....? ( And that the builders took into account a natural cave and a 15 century cross marking a drovers route?)
Arbor Low was built over 1,000 yrs BEFORE Wet Withens & 7 Stones. The Bull ring build date is closer to Arbor Low.
Presumably the builders of other sites really must've spooned-up e.g. Nine Ladies?
I'm sorry but this is a classic example of the fact anyone can make an imaginary alignment with anything....ignoring what doesn't 'suit' along the way.
There are very few megalithic site alignments - those which exist are obvious & close together.
I spent years on this Watkins 'Ley line' theory & it simply doesn't work....I'm sad to say!
What is interesting is that the NW entrance of Arbor Low henge points towards the slightly later Bullring - something which works elsewhere......there appears to be 'markers' for different sites, which MAY indicate the direction of tribe/family members moving on to build a new site elsewhere. They're simple things so best to keep the explanation that way... IMO!
[ This message was edited by: ragnarok on 2007-10-21 19:28 ]
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tiompan
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| Posted 22-10-2007 at 14:26
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On 2007-10-21 19:13, ragnarok wrote:
Walrus,
Alignments to the moon are not straight forward. For example the nearest full moon to this years Summer Solstice was 9 days after & the moon rose nearly half way between SE - SSE (nearer SE) here. However in 1800b.c. the nearest full moon was 3 days before the SS & it rose exactly half way between SE - ESE. Quite a difference!
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How do we know that the full moon was what was being taken into consideration , some might argue for a dark moon , or anything in between .
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