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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Stonehenge Riverside Project
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Stonehenge Riverside Project |
ragnarok

Joined: 26-06-2006
Messages: 429
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| Posted 08-09-2007 at 16:05  
I've just read an article in March/Aprils 'current Archaeology' magazine titled 'Before Stonehenge: village of wild parties' which is primarily about Durrington Walls.
There are various points made which I can find no evidential confirmation. I wondered if anyone else can? Or has anything further to add?
The article includes a plan suggesting/showing that the people from Durrington walls made a 'journey from life to death' down the River Avon to a point where the Stonehenge Avenue meets the Avon. (Then up the avenue to Stonehenge).
This is a journey of some 6 miles.
However I can find no evidence that the avenue actually went as far as the river. Nor that it started from the river & went to Stonehenge as this plan seems to directionally imply.
I understand that the original N.E. Avenue was laid out around 2,200 bc and extended, veering down towards the river around 1100bc but never completed.
This 'plan' shows the Avon as it is today - how about 4,500 or so years ago?
The article also states:
'radio carbon dates from the village (durrington walls) have come out at 2,600 - 2,500 bc, giving an exact match with the main building phases at Stonehenge, when the bluestones and the great sarsens were erected. '' We think we are looking at the village of the actual builders of Stonehenge'' said Mike Parker Pearson.'
However the dates I have found for the erection of the two unfinished circles of bluestones is 2,200bc. They were removed in 2,000 bc when the sarsen ring & thrilithons were constructed. Bluestones were then returned around 1600bc.
If this is correct then Parker Pearson is at least 300 years out in his calculations.
I also find it difficult to understand why any builders of Stonehenge would build their village so far away from the site? (2 miles if you're a crow!)
This bit reads like something out of a novel (or Time Team!):
'The use of timber posts at Durrington Walls symbolised life, the gradual rotting of the posts the passage from life to death. The grey, silent monoliths of Stonehenge were a memorial to the dead, the final destination on life's journey, the place where the ancestors dwelt forever.'
I think it would be reasonable to assume that the dwellings were built using wood as it was plentiful and quick & easy to work. After all we still use the stuff in our dwellings today!
Parker Pearson also states (with ref to Durrington): 'My guess is that they were throwing ashes, human bones, and perhaps even whole bodies into the water, a practice seen in other river settings' But some of the dead, perhaps only the important members of the community, must have been conveyed the whole way....'
I find this somewhat contradictory. Where's the evidence for this? Where else did they practice throwing ashes/bones/bodies into rivers in this country? Anyone know?
Thanks. Raggy.
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Chyknel2

Joined: 27-05-2007
Messages: 2258
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| Posted 08-09-2007 at 16:54  
Haven't read the article but "village of wild parties" comes from the large number of pig bones I presume. Whether lots of dead pigs = parties is speculative I suppose. They might have been rather solemn affairs. Ritual munching of bacon sandwiches for instance.
I agree some of the suggestions are pure guesses, though not based on no pointers or beyond reason (so you posted the item in the right forum!).
"I can find no evidence that the avenue actually went as far as the river........This 'plan' shows the Avon as it is today - how about 4,500 or so years ago?"
The assertion that the Avenue did go right to the river is so often quoted I assume there is evidence, right or wrong. As I recall the river there is at the bottom of a steep slope so couldn't have moved much in one direction.
I agree that "The use of timber posts at Durrington Walls symbolised life, the gradual rotting of the posts the passage from life to death" is a bit fanciful. Second guessing symbolic meaning is a pretty hopeless game. Always assuming any was intended, which in the case of wood seems unlikely. "Lets build our houses of wood lads so in a couple of hundred years they'll symbolically rot...."
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ragnarok

Joined: 26-06-2006
Messages: 429
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| Posted 08-09-2007 at 17:54  
Quote:
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On 2007-09-08 16:54, Chyknel2 wrote:
The assertion that the Avenue did go right to the river is so often quoted I assume there is evidence, right or wrong. As I recall the river there is at the bottom of a steep slope so couldn't have moved much in one direction.
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Thanks for posting Chyknel. I cannot find any evidence for the avenue reaching the river, I think it falls short by about quarter of a mile (perhaps a bit less) which i thought would've been explained if the river had altered - which it obviously could not have done.
I'll search again!
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Chyknel2

Joined: 27-05-2007
Messages: 2258
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| Posted 09-09-2007 at 19:04  
Actually,its been a long time but I think yes, there is flat land between the hill and the river, can't recall if it was as much as a quarter of a mile though. Google Earth may confirm.
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karloff

Joined: 20-10-2006
Messages: 604
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| Posted 11-09-2007 at 13:16  
Quote:
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On 2007-09-08 16:05, ragnarok wrote:
I've just read an article in March/Aprils 'current Archaeology' magazine titled 'Before Stonehenge: village of wild parties' which is primarily about Durrington Walls.
There are various points made which I can find no evidential confirmation. I wondered if anyone else can? Or has anything further to add?
The article includes a plan suggesting/showing that the people from Durrington walls made a 'journey from life to death' down the River Avon to a point where the Stonehenge Avenue meets the Avon. (Then up the avenue to Stonehenge).
This is a journey of some 6 miles.
However I can find no evidence that the avenue actually went as far as the river. Nor that it started from the river & went to Stonehenge as this plan seems to directionally imply.
I understand that the original N.E. Avenue was laid out around 2,200 bc and extended, veering down towards the river around 1100bc but never completed.
This 'plan' shows the Avon as it is today - how about 4,500 or so years ago?
The article also states:
'radio carbon dates from the village (durrington walls) have come out at 2,600 - 2,500 bc, giving an exact match with the main building phases at Stonehenge, when the bluestones and the great sarsens were erected. '' We think we are looking at the village of the actual builders of Stonehenge'' said Mike Parker Pearson.'
However the dates I have found for the erection of the two unfinished circles of bluestones is 2,200bc. They were removed in 2,000 bc when the sarsen ring & thrilithons were constructed. Bluestones were then returned around 1600bc.
If this is correct then Parker Pearson is at least 300 years out in his calculations.
I also find it difficult to understand why any builders of Stonehenge would build their village so far away from the site? (2 miles if you're a crow!)
This bit reads like something out of a novel (or Time Team!):
'The use of timber posts at Durrington Walls symbolised life, the gradual rotting of the posts the passage from life to death. The grey, silent monoliths of Stonehenge were a memorial to the dead, the final destination on life's journey, the place where the ancestors dwelt forever.'
I think it would be reasonable to assume that the dwellings were built using wood as it was plentiful and quick & easy to work. After all we still use the stuff in our dwellings today!
Parker Pearson also states (with ref to Durrington): 'My guess is that they were throwing ashes, human bones, and perhaps even whole bodies into the water, a practice seen in other river settings' But some of the dead, perhaps only the important members of the community, must have been conveyed the whole way....'
I find this somewhat contradictory. Where's the evidence for this? Where else did they practice throwing ashes/bones/bodies into rivers in this country? Anyone know?
Thanks. Raggy.
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Hi raggy
One of the little gripes I have about Current Arch is they re-write (or edit) your articles sometimes without really clearing it properly with you beforehand. I'm not sure if that was the case with MP-Ps article but either Mike was referring to the early phases of Stonehenge when he said the village was inhabited or he has indeed got it completely wrong. The recent EH re-assessment of Stonehenge dating comes out with 2440-2100cal BC for the Sarcens and 2280-2030 cal BC for the Bluestone Circle, and of 2270-1930 cal BC for the construction of the Bluestone Horseshoe. As for all that stuff about posts rotting, sometimes I am embarrassed by fellow archaeologists. I have no problem with bringing the past to life with personal ideas and graphic imagery but all this bad sort of poetic rubbish is just rank.
There have been some burials interpreted as being Neolithic river burials, one site in the Trent in Nottinghamshire and human remains have been recovered adjacent to wooden trackways and platforms in the Somerset Levels, and I believe (though I'll have to confirm) in the Cambridgeshire Fens as well.
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ragnarok

Joined: 26-06-2006
Messages: 429
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| Posted 11-09-2007 at 23:36  
Thanks Karloff & Chyknel for your postings.
And thanks for the updated dates for Stonehenge Karloff.
It appears that M P-P's has got it wrong as those dates are mentioned again, for bluestone/sarsen 'build' phases, in another article on web. However there's always the chance that another editor has misquoted!
Glad you agree with the wood rot!
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Bowerthane

Joined: 19-08-2007
Messages: 1
from The Fens
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| Posted 05-11-2007 at 21:20  
Well I hope I wasn't the only one to catch 'Secrets of Stonehenge' with Francis Pryor on Radio Four just now, or everyone here will be sick as pigs. It sounds like the above excavation it was chiefly concerned with.
However, I think Radio Four's 'listen again' service is avaialble from this webpage:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/pip/vu2ef
They have also been known to repeat these on the World Service.
[ This message was edited by: Bowerthane on 2007-11-05 21:21 ]
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