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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Neanderthal
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Neanderthal |
Andy B
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|  Posted 17-08-2007 at 22:32
Christine writes:
I understood Neanderthal people to have inhabited northern Europe?! They keep dredging up mammoth bones from the North Sea and research has shown a huge land there with rivers and grasslands. I can`t understand also why when its admitted there isn`t usually enough evidence to even get a proper DNA result science insists we have no Neander DNA linking us.
When and how did those African apes evolve enough and in large enough numbers to set out on a quest over the rest of the world when Africans themselves just never left Africa until the 19th century! Not being an academic (just a journalist long ago and still writing in a smaller way in retirement)
I suppose the answer is I don`t have the know-how, but nothing makes sense to me at all on these subjects of who we were and where we came from. There are more gaps than fillers in on the human family-tree so I don`t know how these scientists can say anything with certainty.
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KenWilliams
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| Posted 19-08-2007 at 11:47
There have been numerous exits from Africa over millions of years, Orang Utans have a common ancestor with us and gorillas/chimps etc. for example, though they broke away from the family tree long before the common ancestor of chimps and humans and ended up over much of Asia, long before any 'human' exit.
The common ancestor of humans and chimps lived around 6 million years ago in Africa, an ape was born who's descendants would become the human race through the process of evolution, another ape was born who's descendants would become chimpanzees and bonobos. There are no fossil records from this time but when the fossil record resumes, two distinct lineages can be seen.
There were several attempted exits from Africa over the following millions of years, Homo Erectus successfully made it from Africa to much of Asia and Neanderthals colonised the near east and parts of Europe.
At this point, the ancestors of modern humans still lived in Africa, physcially modern humans first appear on the scene 200,000 years ago. At this point they would have looked much like us, you wouldn't notice anything odd about them if you met one on the street. Mentally though, they behaved much the same as Homo Erectus and Neanderthals, up until a major shift in mental ability sometime around 50-70,000 years ago.
Sometime around 50,000 years ago a small group of humans left Africa, estimated to be between 150 to 5,000 people, and made their way towards India along the coast. This small band of people are the common ancestors of all modern people throughout the world today. Their DNA has been traced as they moved across the continents so we can now tell that they first travelled towards India before a split, some made their way north towards Europe.
By this time Homo Erectus and Neanderthals were in sharp decline, whether because of diseases transmitted by modern humans, enviornmental changes or aggression/war with humans, we're not certain.
The reason we know all this is the trail left behind in the DNA of modern people, there is nothing in the DNA of modern western european people to suggest they interbred with Neanderthals, if they did there would be traces that would not be found in human populations that had no contact with Neanderthals.
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silvatici
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| Posted 19-08-2007 at 12:05
i would reccomend "homo britannicus" by chris skinner to read.
ive read a few other books about our evolution, and found this
by far the most easy to follow.
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mikecroley
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| Posted 19-08-2007 at 22:48
This is nearer the truth:
The Chronology of Genesis
A Complete History of the Nefilim
Neil Zimmerer
Follow the Nefilim Through the Ages
A complete history of Genesis, the gods and the history of Earth... before the gods were destroyed by their own creations more than 2500 years ago!
A lifelong student of Sumerian history, Neil Zimmerer brings a fresh perspective to this study of the ancient text of Genesis. He details the creation of the universe and explores evolution: the greatest mystery.
Zimmerer presents the most complete history of the Nefilim ever developed—from the Sumerian Nefilim kings through the Nefilim today. He provides evidence of extraterrestrial Nefilim monuments, and includes fascinating information on pre-Nefilim man-apes and man-apes of the world in the present age.
A book not to be missed by researchers into the mysterious origins of mankind.
http://oneheartbooks.com/books/aliens/chronology_of_genesis.htm
mike
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ragnarok
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| Posted 19-08-2007 at 23:50
Ken, I'm probably wrong, as I'm doing this from my memory banks (which may well be impaired by now!) but sure I read that the oldest 'humanoid' bones found on our shores were some 25,000 years old?
Why cannot homo sapien have evolved at different times on different continents? Why Africa? Why aren't we all black? Personally think that white skinned/blue eyed/blond haired humans evolved separately from black skinned/black eyed/black haired humans. Surely DNA would show that we all evolved from apes, but there's many branches - just like there's still many breeds of apes/monkeys/chimps?
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KenWilliams
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| Posted 20-08-2007 at 00:36
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On 2007-08-19 23:50, ragnarok wrote:
Ken, I'm probably wrong, as I'm doing this from my memory banks (which may well be impaired by now!) but sure I read that the oldest 'humanoid' bones found on our shores were some 25,000 years old?
Why cannot homo sapien have evolved at different times on different continents? Why Africa? Why aren't we all black? Personally think that white skinned/blue eyed/blond haired humans evolved separately from black skinned/black eyed/black haired humans. Surely DNA would show that we all evolved from apes, but there's many branches - just like there's still many breeds of apes/monkeys/chimps?
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Africa is home to the most diverse human populations on the planet (usually a good crude indicator of somethings origin) and what's not popularly recognised is that there are many 'races' in Africa that, despite many minor differences, could be grouped together into four very different groups. Blacks are just one of these groups (African Whites (not colonisers), Pygmies, Blacks and Khoisan).
Modern humans across the world vary very, very little from continent to continent, nowhere near as much as within Africa. The differences are mostly superficial and DNA analysis has traced their ancestry back to a single source of people who must have left Africa around 50,000 years ago. Enviornmental conditions and sexual selection caused the different appearances we see today. The archaeological record also traces the distinctly modern tools used by these people as they made their way across the continents.
The homo lineage did evolve differently in different places, as with Neanderthals and Homo Erectus but evolution works over millions of years, 50,000 years is peanuts in evolutionary time and we know from the archaeological record and DNA analysis that modern humans did not colonise outside Africa until after 50,000 years ago. The 'races' of today are not distinct enough to have different come from different branches, and the proof is in the chromosomes.
All male humans outside Africa carry the same basic Y chromosome, with a host of mutations built into it over time. One mutation called M168 appears in all males outside Africa, mutations appear at quite a steady rate so geneticists could estimate this mutation occured in Africa 59,000 years ago and we are all descended from the man in whom this mutation occured, dubbed the 'ancestral Adam'. A similar excercise can be carried out on the mitochondrial DNA of women though mutations in mitochondrial DNA mutates faster than the Y chromosome. It has been estimated that the 'ancestral Eve' lived in Africa 150,000 years ago and we are all her descendants, every other lineage died off as is also the case of the 'ancestral Adam's' contemporaries.
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mishkin
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| Posted 20-08-2007 at 08:01
Or if you want the alternative version to how the human race got here go visit the Creation Museum in America for dinosaurs happily frolicking with Adam and Eve.....
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2872252.ece
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 20-08-2007 at 09:59
So how does the 500,000-year-old Homo heidelbergensis at Boxgrove fit into this? Nowhere I guess since he's not our ancestor.
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karloff
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| Posted 20-08-2007 at 14:08
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On 2007-08-20 09:59, davidmorgan wrote:
So how does the 500,000-year-old Homo heidelbergensis at Boxgrove fit into this? Nowhere I guess since he's not our ancestor.
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Hi all
At the moment the idea is that Heidelburgensis is an ancestor of Neanderthals but that may change as new fossils are discovered.
Just a note of caution here ragnarok, what you are saying is that black people are a different species (ie they evolved from a different ancestor) from white people. I think you are confusing breeds with species. There are many different breeds of dog for example but they are all the same species and can (generally) mate and produce viable offspring (one factor of a definition of species). There are many different species of monkey (not breeds) and these cannot mate and produce offspring.
I don't think you mean to be racist nor am I calling you one, but your ideas mirror those put forward by racists in the late 19th and early 20th century. We have had these discussions on this fora before concerning eye/hair/skin colour and despite what any politically motivated people have declared all humans are the same species and share the same ancestor.
Please people think about the implications of such statements before posting cus ideas like those put forward by ragnarok are propagated by really nasty political organisations and supporting those ideas only encourages them.
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ragnarok
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 14:36
Thanks Ken & Mishkin for informative & interesting info.
Further to this I've found that the oldest Homo Erectus was discovered in Kenya - 1.5 million years old.
Oldest hominid or human-like skeleton has been dated 3.22 to 3.58 million yrs ago.
European hominid fossil bones were found in La Sima caves, Atapuerca, N.Spain - date around 300,000 yrs ago.
At another site at Atapuerca the remains of the oldest human ever found in Europe - 780,000 yrs old.
Oldest Homo Sapien bones found nr. Kibish, Ethiopia - 195,000 yrs old. (Others homo sapien bones were found at Herto, Ethiopia - dated 154,000 to 160,000 yrs old)
Oldest Homo Sapien bones found in Britain (Kents Cavern) - 37,000 - 40,000 yrs old.
400,000 yr old wooden javelins have been found in the Harz mountains, Germany.
[ This message was edited by: ragnarok on 2007-08-22 14:38 ]
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 15:28
And here they all are...
http://www.dentalgain.org/man.html
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ragnarok
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 17:37
Excellent line-up David, the last one is by far the weirdest!
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cropredy
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 19:45
To Christine's origonal post ,
and Her wondering about the gaps etc that don't make sense.
If they are looking with only half the clues been comprehensible to them, then they will only see that half that they have.
To our senses and general knowledge all things relevant to life upon this planet remain reasonably the same, but we cannot know that is so.
How do we know any of the mixture of available ingredients that go into making life and if they alter over milleniums as this planet traverses around its pathway.
How do we know if other life forms have arrived upon this planet , and interbred or helped alter the existing stock, we don't know.
It is not right that any such possibility is ignored and ridiculed.
We don't know anything about universe , and yet we declare that we know about vast time frames in the past.
We do not , it is just whatever evidence is found is given the best aproximation relevant to all other supposed things.
They declare as fact, but in reality do not know.
I watched the BBC news just this morning talking of T rex, the presenter said " we KNOW" regarding certain aspects of them, they do not know, everything could have been vastly different to now.
The presenter was quoting the royal society, so he must be right?
Darwinism is put forward as proof, and that we have evolved from a lower life form, I think this suits various religions, but it doesn't make sense to me either.
Many such evolvements could well occur, but vast alterations upon this planet may involve far more than our present senses are capable of comprehending.
Kevin
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mikecroley
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 19:51
http://www.earth-history.com/_images/0skull.jpg
[ This message was edited by: mikecroley on 2007-08-22 19:55 ]
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mikecroley
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 19:57
A link that works:
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://oneheartbooks.com/images/giant_skull.jpg&imgrefurl=http://oneheartbooks.com/aliens.html&h=230&w=370&sz=14&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=_HdPwg6FXT7jDM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnephilim%2Bskull%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
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ragnarok
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 21:59
In many cultures or tribes they deliberately created misshapen heads by permanently binding the babies skull, until adulthood, with cloth or animal skins which resulted in these unnatural shaped skulls. I understand that some tribes still practice this.
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mikecroley
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| Posted 22-08-2007 at 22:16
In many cultures or tribes they deliberately created misshapen heads by permanently binding the babies skull, until adulthood, with cloth or animal skins which resulted in these unnatural shaped skulls. I understand that some tribes still practice this.
[/quote]
Yep, so they looked like their gods of old.
mike
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davidmorgan
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| Posted 23-08-2007 at 10:11
Quote:
| On 2007-08-22 22:16, mikecroley wrote:
Yep, so they looked like their gods of old. |
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I suppose Viracocha might appear to have a sloping forehead here:
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=27360
but I think it had more to do with their sense of aesthetics.
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mikecroley
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| Posted 23-08-2007 at 17:53
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/images/109images/egyptian/akhenaton.jpg
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ragnarok
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| Posted 23-08-2007 at 18:13
Result of a bad face lift? The eye & position of the ear is a dead give away! 
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