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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Offerings at stones
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Offerings at stones |
Laughing_Ball
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|  Posted 25-07-2007 at 21:32
How about desecration of other sacred cows such as... sacred cows?: Shambo
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mikecroley
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| Posted 25-07-2007 at 21:47
Good, for a moment there I thought chykers was pointing the finger at us three. As for pulling down the stones with mind magik, I think there's only Paulus and Muddy here who know it can be done.
I think chykers beef is with the pagan community and the new agers Kev, Nancy, not us.
mike
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 25-07-2007 at 21:48
Well, one of them climbs on scheduled megaliths because he believes in leylines and crop circles and the other buries stuff in scheduled monuments because he believes in lizard people. And I'm in the wrong for objecting to what they do. Fine, you win, let 'em rip and thousands like 'em.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-07-2007 at 22:03
Chyknel2,
That was funny post 2
Your a case.
Kevin
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MuddyMick
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 08:03
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On 2007-07-24 11:31, maengurta wrote:
I agree in general that sites should remain as they are found however I do feel that offerings are not allways out of place if they represent a direct continuation of tradition. I have seen at Madron Well in the dying light of dusk, a young lad in a wheelchair accompanied by his mother tie a cloutie rag to one of the trees and leave almost straight away afterwards. The act of this young lad (probably of good cornish methodist stock) is worlds away from vandalism and was both surprising and moving to witness. I would think it a great shame if clouties dissapeared from the holy wells of Cornwall and would think a great deal of their potency and sanctity would vanish also.
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Hi Maengurta,
Fine point!
Regards
MM
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 11:26
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On 2007-07-25 22:03, cropredy wrote:
Chyknel2,
That was funny post 2
Your a case.
Kevin
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Yes, both funny and not followed by a denial. But you are right, conserving sites is an absolutely ludicrous instinct exhibited only by people who are "cases", fools who are blind to the deeper insights that you lot possess. I apologise for my ignorance and narrow perspective and for that of others. Do what you like.
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ragnarok
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 21:30
Tell me, just WHO wants to see a load of rotting mouldy flowers on, or by, a stone?? I have many times visiting sites a week or two after some newage/'pagan' ritual. Or mounds of rusty coins which have accumulated in various nooks & crannies of these ancient stones, or rotten badly painted eggs; especially when the paint runs & has discoloured the stone! Or 'voodoo' dolls tied in nearby shrubs/trees; again a few days later, when the dressings come off them & get caught in the vegetation, they look bludy disgusting! Get real, who wants our ancient sites to look like a tip!!
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Aluta
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 22:14
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On 2007-07-26 21:30, ragnarok wrote:
Tell me, just WHO wants to see a load of rotting mouldy flowers on, or by, a stone?? I have many times visiting sites a week or two after some newage/'pagan' ritual. Or mounds of rusty coins which have accumulated in various nooks & crannies of these ancient stones, or rotten badly painted eggs; especially when the paint runs & has discoloured the stone! Or 'voodoo' dolls tied in nearby shrubs/trees; again a few days later, when the dressings come off them & get caught in the vegetation, they look bludy disgusting! Get real, who wants our ancient sites to look like a tip!!
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I didn't say we should all go leave flowers or anything else at sites. But whether we give permission or not, it is going to happen, so why not anticipate it and consider the task of cleaning it ,if we wish to do so, as a service to the site and others?
I'm not for or against people having rules against it if that is what they need in order to feel good. I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless, because it happens anywhere that people feel reverence, whether it's after Diana's death, a place where someone died along the road, a grave, a high and lonely lookout on a hill, a well, church, or a site. It happens, you know? When people feel deeply they have to express it, and some will always choose this method.
People have needs for acts like this, and some will always feel that their needs will supersede the laws. As I see it, our choice is either to get angry and surprised each time we see it, or to anticipate that it might happen any time, and accept it as arising from the needs of other people like ourselves. We can either dislike people more when we see it or feel the compassion that reminds us that we're all in this life of hope and loss together.
You know, it's not the other person who benefits when you choose not to be angry. He or she will never know about your feelings one way or another. It's you who will have a better day if you're able to smile understandingly and gently move the offering away. And for those who believe in such things, you bring a positive rather than a negative energy to the site.
Okay, I've said my piece. I respect those who prefer their sites free of others' bringings.
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Laughing_Ball
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 22:30
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On 2007-07-26 22:14, Aluta wrote:
But whether we give permission or not, it is going to happen, so why not anticipate it and consider the task of cleaning it ,if we wish to do so, as a service to the site and others? ....
I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless...
People have needs for acts like this, and some will always feel that their needs will supersede the laws. |
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With that kind of attitude we may as well just sit back and accept littering and pollution everywhere not just heritage sites. Just sit back and say 'oh well, we can't do anything about it... lets give up!'.
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Aluta
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 22:37
I differentiate between people doing something very purposefully out of love and need from careless littering and pollution.
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ragnarok
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 22:50
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On 2007-07-26 22:14, Aluta wrote:
[quote]
I'm not for or against people having rules against it if that is what they need in order to feel good. I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless, because it happens anywhere that people feel reverence, whether it's after Diana's death, a place where someone died along the road, a grave, a high and lonely lookout on a hill, a well, church, or a site. It happens, you know? When people feel deeply they have to express it, and some will always choose this method.
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But these ancient stones have absolutely nothing to do with any present day death.(Unless they died or were buried at the site of course!). We have our more modern churches/chapels etc. if anyone wants to pay reverence in this way by leaving dying flowers.
Using our prehistoric sites in this way is not appropriate.
I understand that money is left with the hope that more money will be gained by the leaver & as for the voodoo dolls etc. Well, that's just plain evil!
I'm all for paying reverence but no-one NEEDS to leave anything behind. Mental reverence SHOULD be enough.
Interestingly I have just received a email from someone I know who occasionally looks on this site, but doesn't contribute, who read my last. She recently met up with a couple of people who left offerings at a stone circle last Easter. The girl left flowers; about a month later a close friend died. The guy left a coin; he was made redundant from his job a week later & hasn't found work since!
As neither coins or flowers would be understood by any ancient spirits which may be present at these sites perhaps this is how they 'read' the offerings left. Maybe it's a valuable lesson: be careful what you leave & what you wish for!
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 22:53
"I differentiate between people doing something very purposefully out of love and need from careless littering and pollution."
You may do.
But what about seeing it as "causing careless littering and pollution very purposefully out of love" which is the truth of the process if the feelings of the rest of us are allowed for instead of disregarded.
It still comes down to them selfishly disregarding the feelings of the majority, however you choose to represent it. And as for saying it will happen anyway and if we don't like it we should clear up after them, well, what a confounded cheek. Have you seen pictures of the piles of utter mindless plastic crap that constantly disfigures Swallowhead springs and West Kennet Long Barrow? Are you seriously suggesting people are intolerant to object to that, and that anyone who does can spend their time clearing it up?? How about a loving and tolerant kick up the a*se - would that not solve the problem more equitably?
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 23:18
On 2007-07-26 22:50, ragnarok wrote:
Quote:
| Maybe it's a valuable lesson: be careful what you leave & what you wish for! |
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True. On the other hand, once I left my wooden leg at a site and the very next week I won 50p on a scratch card.
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Laughing_Ball
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 23:26
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On 2007-07-26 22:53, Chyknel2 wrote:
How about a loving and tolerant kick up the a*se - would that not solve the problem more equitably?
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Hear hear. I'm sick off this overly PC, namby pamby attitude of allowing people the right to express themselves at any cost - it does none of us any favours.
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Laughing_Ball
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| Posted 26-07-2007 at 23:42
I was shocked to read that English Heritage have made the suggestion to the 'Pagan community' that, when the final sealing of Silbury Hill takes place, they might like to place artefacts in the hill!
English Heritage invites Pagans to have offerings sealed inside Silbury
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MuddyMick
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| Posted 27-07-2007 at 13:03
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On 2007-07-26 22:50, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-07-26 22:14, Aluta wrote:
[quote]
I'm not for or against people having rules against it if that is what they need in order to feel good. I'm just pointing out that it will happen regardless, because it happens anywhere that people feel reverence, whether it's after Diana's death, a place where someone died along the road, a grave, a high and lonely lookout on a hill, a well, church, or a site. It happens, you know? When people feel deeply they have to express it, and some will always choose this method.
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But these ancient stones have absolutely nothing to do with any present day death.(Unless they died or were buried at the site of course!). We have our more modern churches/chapels etc. if anyone wants to pay reverence in this way by leaving dying flowers.
Using our prehistoric sites in this way is not appropriate.
I understand that money is left with the hope that more money will be gained by the leaver & as for the voodoo dolls etc. Well, that's just plain evil!
I'm all for paying reverence but no-one NEEDS to leave anything behind. Mental reverence SHOULD be enough.
Interestingly I have just received a email from someone I know who occasionally looks on this site, but doesn't contribute, who read my last. She recently met up with a couple of people who left offerings at a stone circle last Easter. The girl left flowers; about a month later a close friend died. The guy left a coin; he was made redundant from his job a week later & hasn't found work since!
As neither coins or flowers would be understood by any ancient spirits which may be present at these sites perhaps this is how they 'read' the offerings left. Maybe it's a valuable lesson: be careful what you leave & what you wish for!
[/quote]
HI raggy,
Firstly how do you know these stones have nothing to do with death, modern or otherwise?
modern day chapels and churches may be a tad inappropriate for many who are marginalised by these said faiths.
As for the phrase "just plain evil" obviously emotive and without merit in any debate.
The rest of the 'majickal thinking' speaks volumes!
Regards
mm
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 27-07-2007 at 13:17
I know quite a few Pagans and none of them want anything put in Silbury and none of them would dream of leaving offerings at sites.
So even amongst them its a minority practice.
In addition, I get the impression most (but not all obviously) of those who leave offerings at sites I go to are teenage lasses without a lot of real spiritual awareness and a bit of look-at-me-I'm-mysterious about them. Am I allowed to say that? Who cares, I have, and its the impression I get. So I'm not desperately amenable to admonitions that I must respect their rights and clear up after them. Shout at them, yes, I'm up for that. Ain't I bad?!
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cropredy
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| Posted 27-07-2007 at 14:28
It is my considered and personel comprehension that all deceased life re-joins into the flows that concentrate at specific points upon a matrix geometric system.
That at these points almost every ancient site and church I have been to are constructed to observe and be a part of this matrix.
That wells and many trees are also perfectly aligned with this matrix.
I can totally understand why people leave offerings at such places to the memory of all deceased life.
They may also remember themselves been part of these flows, as I also consider that the flows create all new life upon this planet.
The point where these flows meet is the point.
Those who cannot comprehend of this or even contemplate it should at least honour those that can and allow them their method of communication.
kevin
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Chyknel2
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| Posted 27-07-2007 at 15:04
"Those who cannot comprehend of this or even contemplate it should at least honour those that can and allow them their method of communication."
Well, as I (almost) said before -
That majority of people that cannot comprehend the deep significance to some people of leaving packs of chips in the phone box shouldn't be asked to honour them, understand them, clean up after them or refrain from kicking their a*ses very hard until they understand the simple fact that duty to everyone else sometimes outranks personal wishes.
Play fair in shared spaces. Leave phone boxes as you would expect to find them.
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cropredy
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| Posted 27-07-2007 at 15:26
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On 2007-07-27 15:04, Chyknel2 wrote:
"Those who cannot comprehend of this or even contemplate it should at least honour those that can and allow them their method of communication."
Well, as I (almost) said before -
That majority of people that cannot comprehend the deep significance to some people of leaving packs of chips in the phone box shouldn't be asked to honour them, understand them, clean up after them or refrain from kicking their a*ses very hard until they understand the simple fact that duty to everyone else sometimes outranks personal wishes.
Play fair in shared spaces. Leave phone boxes as you would expect to find them.
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I must again assume that you are the expert as far as fish and chips been left in phone boxs.
What that has to do with peoples clearly deeply held comprehension of a certain SOMETHING at ancient sites, I don't know?
Do you remove flowers from inside churchs? Or likenesses to saints or virgin Mary statues etc.
Kevin
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