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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Cup & Ring's
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Cup & Ring's |
PeterSmith
Joined:
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Messages: 49
from Shipley, West Yorkshire
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|  Posted 14-05-2007 at 18:48
I noticed some odd ground markings on the valley wall near to the Baildon Moor Cup and Ring stones so thought I would have a shufty from the air:
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/petersmith.mobile/BaildonStonesAerialPhotosOfTheValleySide/photo#5064448215351219458
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/petersmith.mobile/BaildonStonesAerialPhotosOfTheValleySide/photo#5064422406892737730
I have been investigating and the earliest reference I can find to these features is an OS map of 1842 showing these markings as OLD Coal Pits. How old exactly it does not say.
Anyone noticed such features near other Cup & Ring stones?
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 21:19
It is not my position to preach to those that so wonderfully seek out and record these stones and markings, but.
It would be hugely benificial if a compass bearing was sited along the stones, most preferably east/west.
Then the relevant area around them could be linked to the patterns now that google earth is so fine especially, I have reason to suppose you are quite correct Peter.
Kevin
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Rich32
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from West Yorks
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 22:22
Peter,
I looked into those pits a while ago, both literally and metaphorically speaking 
From what I can remember, the earliest written records suggest that bell pits were dug on Baildon around 1600, but there’s a few other snippets suggesting Baildon was mined earlier. I think, a local lord complained about folks nicking his coal in about 1350ish & also Rievaulx or Fountains Abbey (can’t remember which) had mineral rights close by in the 13thCentury. I’d hazard a guess that most of the pits we see today are from the last 200yrs, but could be wrong.
Kevin, the carvings on Baildon are scattered in all directions.
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PeterSmith
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from Shipley, West Yorkshire
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 22:36
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On 2007-05-14 22:22, Rich32 wrote:
Peter,
I looked into those pits a while ago, both literally and metaphorically speaking
From what I can remember, the earliest written records suggest that bell pits were dug on Baildon around 1600, but there’s a few other snippets suggesting Baildon was mined earlier. I think, a local lord complained about folks nicking his coal in about 1350ish & also Rievaulx or Fountains Abbey (can’t remember which) had mineral rights close by in the 13thCentury. I’d hazard a guess that most of the pits we see today are from the last 200yrs, but could be wrong.
Kevin, the carvings on Baildon are scattered in all directions.
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Interesting, thanks. I really must remember to validate everything thoroughly before posting such mumblings.
Kevin, in response to your post, no. My question was simple and general enough and the image contained more data than enough data to resolve the location E/W.
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 22:40
Rich 32,
I have no doubt that they are scattered in all directions, Thats why i would recommend a pointer, a bearing to allow all to know what bearings are relevant to a given picture.
If a typical surveyors pole was laid across the stone , in the east/west position each time, at least the relevant position of the carvings could then be seen relevant to a google picture.
As for the pits, I find that differing elements are deposited upon very precise points, without getting into my dowsing which causes annoyance, it is simple to think that any mining would be at relevant points of where a given substance could be found?
Therefore if the miners had a reason to presume a given spot would contain a given load, it really is irrelevant when they did this, it merely confirms the specific points as been possibly relevant to earlier markings?
Kevin
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Rich32
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from West Yorks
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 23:14
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On 2007-05-14 22:40, cropredy wrote:
Rich 32,
I have no doubt that they are scattered in all directions, Thats why i would recommend a pointer, a bearing to allow all to know what bearings are relevant to a given picture.
If a typical surveyors pole was laid across the stone , in the east/west position each time, at least the relevant position of the carvings could then be seen relevant to a google picture.
As for the pits, I find that differing elements are deposited upon very precise points, without getting into my dowsing which causes annoyance, it is simple to think that any mining would be at relevant points of where a given substance could be found?
Therefore if the miners had a reason to presume a given spot would contain a given load, it really is irrelevant when they did this, it merely confirms the specific points as been possibly relevant to earlier markings?
Kevin
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Kevin,a number of the carvings have been moved, so it would probably be pointless.
The pits may also confirm the existence of coal seams.
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cropredy
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| Posted 14-05-2007 at 23:24
Rich32,
If the pits gave a match to near stones markings, then you may know how they should origonally lie?
The substance in the pits is probably why they were mined, and probably why they were marked upon a stone.
In all instances , it is the point , precise point, that is relevant, both to ancient peoples, and to more recent, and again now?
They went to great lengths to mark the points, don't let them down now, don't miss the point.
The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording.
the points don't move, which is far more important.
Kevin
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Rich32
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from West Yorks
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 08:43
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On 2007-05-14 23:24, cropredy wrote:
Rich32,
If the pits gave a match to near stones markings, then you may know how they should origonally lie?
The substance in the pits is probably why they were mined, and probably why they were marked upon a stone.
In all instances , it is the point , precise point, that is relevant, both to ancient peoples, and to more recent, and again now?
They went to great lengths to mark the points, don't let them down now, don't miss the point.
The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording.
the points don't move, which is far more important.
Kevin
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Kevin, I don't mean to be rude, but I'll leave you to your thoughts if you don't mind.
cheers
Rich
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PeterSmith
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from Shipley, West Yorkshire
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 15:13
Quote:
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On 2007-05-14 23:24, cropredy wrote:
Rich32,
If the pits gave a match to near stones markings, then you may know how they should origonally lie?
The substance in the pits is probably why they were mined, and probably why they were marked upon a stone.
In all instances , it is the point , precise point, that is relevant, both to ancient peoples, and to more recent, and again now?
They went to great lengths to mark the points, don't let them down now, don't miss the point.
The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording.
the points don't move, which is far more important.
Kevin
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Kevin, I absolutely agree with you. I reckon whatever is being mined here is of sufficient importance as to warrant a signpost of sorts.
Can you enlighten me as to what you mean by "The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording"? What am I missing?
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Rich32, from your own research was it concluded when these mines might have been first established?
What do you think these markings might be? Bell Pits are sort of ruled out because of their lack of vertical shaft. These are nearly all on the sloping valley walls with aparently horizontal shafts leading directly into the layers of sediment exposed by the departed glacier.
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cropredy
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 16:01
Petersmith,
The result of observation, with an observetory.
A fixed rock with a fixed slot arranged over it, if you mark the observable position of sunlight and moonlight, you will achieve spirals, very handy for planting especially, as i consider things alter at the limits .
The sun dagger in Chaco canyon gives the best clue.
http://www.jqjacobs.net/southwest/chaco.html
Kevin
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ragnarok
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 16:16
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On 2007-05-15 16:01, cropredy wrote:
The result of observation, with an observetory.
A fixed rock with a fixed slot arranged over it, if you mark the observable position of sunlight and moonlight, you will achieve spirals, very handy for planting especially, as i consider things alter at the limits .
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Sorry mate don't get that at all. How would that work, from the point of view of creating spirals from the sun or moon? I've not noticed anything 'spirally' in the arc created by eithers 'movements' across our sky. I must be missing something here?
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TheCaptain
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from near Bristol
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 19:24
we are ALL (except one) missing something. Hail the messiah.
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Rich32
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from West Yorks
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 19:25
Quote:
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On 2007-05-15 15:13, PeterSmith wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-05-14 23:24, cropredy wrote:
Rich32,
If the pits gave a match to near stones markings, then you may know how they should origonally lie?
The substance in the pits is probably why they were mined, and probably why they were marked upon a stone.
In all instances , it is the point , precise point, that is relevant, both to ancient peoples, and to more recent, and again now?
They went to great lengths to mark the points, don't let them down now, don't miss the point.
The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording.
the points don't move, which is far more important.
Kevin
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Kevin, I absolutely agree with you. I reckon whatever is being mined here is of sufficient importance as to warrant a signpost of sorts.
Can you enlighten me as to what you mean by "The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording"? What am I missing?
---------
Rich32, from your own research was it concluded when these mines might have been first established?
What do you think these markings might be? Bell Pits are sort of ruled out because of their lack of vertical shaft. These are nearly all on the sloping valley walls with aparently horizontal shafts leading directly into the layers of sediment exposed by the departed glacier.
[/quote]
Peter, it wasn’t really extensive research, just 3 or 4 websites from what I can remember. I’m not sure when mining first started there, cant recall which other types of mining were eluded to, other than ‘bell pits’. There was something about folks infilling old mines with spoil from the new pits, so I imagine more will exist than what we see on the surface today. Various tools from prehistory have been found on the moor (as you’d expect with rock art in the vicinity), but what context they were from I don’t know.
The question of what rock art means is probably something that will never be answered…..I hope. One thing we’ve got to remember is that CnRs are thought to have been carved over a period of 1500yrs, so they probably had different meanings over that period. Each Rock Art area tends to conform to certain characteristics, so in West & North Yorkshire (Dales) most sites have a major river in the valley, are above 250meters high on fairly flat terraces, have a good source of water & higher ground in at least one direction. Other areas are different, so in Northumberland, rock art setting is less picky in terms of topography, its quite often on peaks (which isn’t the case down here, unless in a cairn), is around significant topographic features (Cheviot, Simonside), and a significant number can be found on bedrock, where as down here carvings tend to be on boulders. In terms of style, even though the carvings use cups, rings & grooves you’ll find a higher % of elaborate carvings in Northumberland. They seemed to like cups and multiple rings up there, where as in Yorkshire more than 3 rings are quite rare.
There’s also significant evidence that carvings were added to at different stages, with some almost completely worn motifs next to cups with clearly visible tooling marks (could be several reasons for this) + newer markings cutting across older ones. Quite possibly, you could have 2 carvings next to each other on Baildon that looks similar, but were in fact carved many centuries apart & had completely different meanings to the carvers.
Many folks do think that cups and rings represent different maps, physical, celestial and spiritual, so the ‘pit – cup’ theory isn’t too dissimilar.
Sorry, I do tend to waffle on a bit when it comes to rock art.
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cropredy
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from Oxon
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| Posted 15-05-2007 at 20:28
Petersmith,
Drafty up on't moors , similer to here for me.
Any road, this is close,
http://www.viewzone.com/carving_cosmos.html
Kevin
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brigantia
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from Yorkshire & Argyll
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| Posted 16-05-2007 at 14:26
Hi Kev -
Quote:
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On 2007-05-14 23:24, cropredy wrote:
If the pits gave a match to near stones markings, then you may know how they should origonally lie?
The substance in the pits is probably why they were mined, and probably why they were marked upon a stone.
In all instances , it is the point , precise point, that is relevant, both to ancient peoples, and to more recent, and again now?
They went to great lengths to mark the points, don't let them down now, don't miss the point.
The spirals will have taken 18.6 years of carefull recording.
the points don't move, which is far more important.
Kevin
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Simple answers to this one, much of which Rich has already said.
First, the carvings were here first, by a good millenia or two. And the majority of them on the area which Peter has queried were put here in relation to the many cairns which once scattered the exact same area, right next to the said burials - just like we find on Green Crag, Ilkley Moor. They were burial markers here (though other mythic functions would no doubt be written into some of them). The pits are, simply, coal pits. I did a survey of this entire region more than 20yr back, and the geophys maps show correlates of coal seams, near the pits here mentioned. The CRs simply marked the Bronze Age tombs.
As for the CRs as direction markers: I checked this out too - in days when I was ruining maps with ley-lines, here, there and everywhere. And despite every attempt to show correlates with major stars, planets, leys, what-have-you, the CRs simply didn't respond. The 18.6 year cycle also doesn't work here (I checked it!). There are potential correlates for such things elsewhere, but not here. Even the dowsers (Tom Graves and his ilk) found as such. The CR-association here is death. There would obviously be other mythic correlates, but they'd be local, tribal ingredients. If there was any stellar association here, it would be with Thuban.
Cheers - Paul
[ This message was edited by: brigantia on 2007-05-16 14:29 ]
[ This message was edited by: brigantia on 2007-05-16 20:41 ]
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PeterSmith
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| Posted 16-05-2007 at 19:45
Thanks all, really interesting to hear first hand experiences.
My office window overlooks the area photographed at eye level from the opposing valley side, its quite spectacular. These features have been puzzling to me for ages, there are simply hundreds of them on all sides of the valley's (Aire & Wharfe).
Makes you wonder if there are any surviving caves inside them there hillocks...
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ragnarok
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| Posted 17-05-2007 at 15:37
Back to 'spirals', anyone got any ideas what they may represent, if anything?
If Sun or Moon please explain how that works.
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brigantia
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| Posted 17-05-2007 at 17:38
Hello again!
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On 2007-05-17 15:37, ragnarok wrote:
Back to 'spirals', anyone got any ideas what they may represent, if anything?
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The general meaning behind archaic spirals (from those 'science fiction' realms as you call them, of myth and religious history) is creation, creativity, Nature's growth. Its precursor is the dot, the singularity, the point, out of which the worlds arise via the spiral. That's its traditional mythic function. But it can also, context-dependent, represent a journey. And it's best left at that! Within the same mythic contexts, when the manifest universe takes form, the spiral becomes the swastika.
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If Sun or Moon please explain how that works.
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In most traditional societies, these two objects tend to be symbolised by either the circle, the arc or concentric rings. If you can find spirals of these bodies I'd love to know. I assume there's some examples somewhere...
If you really wanna know more, check Mr Eliade, and Jill Purce's Mystic Spiral.
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PeterSmith
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| Posted 17-05-2007 at 18:46
Hypothetically of course, if these do represent the location of coal deposits, one could imagine that the spirals could be adding information about the deposits. Maybe the spirals show how deep the deposit is, or how large the seam is.
Spirals may represent the location, size & access point of each deposit. Single dots being near small surface deposit or vertical shafts, the 'dots on sticks' being Adits.
Sorry no energy lines or anything mystical.
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ragnarok
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| Posted 17-05-2007 at 21:07
[quote]
On 2007-05-17 17:38, brigantia wrote:
The general meaning behind archaic spirals (from those 'science fiction' realms as you call them, of myth and religious history) is creation, creativity, Nature's growth. Its precursor is the dot, the singularity, the point, out of which the worlds arise via the spiral. That's its traditional mythic function. But it can also, context-dependent, represent a journey. And it's best left at that! Within the same mythic contexts, when the manifest universe takes form, the spiral becomes the swastika.
> Er? Perhaps you misunderstood me; I was talking about spirals as in rock art spirals as carved by prehistoric man some 3,000 to 5,000(?) years ago. Nothing fictional or mythological about them as the evidence is clearly visible for all to see.
So you think that these spirals meant to the carvers - creation, creativity & natures growth?
Surely that's just a newage meaning?
In most traditional societies, these two objects tend to be symbolised by either the circle, the arc or concentric rings. If you can find spirals of these bodies I'd love to know. I assume there's some examples somewhere...
> Quite, exactly my point from a previous posting, yet that seems to be the general belief.
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