On 2007-02-01 14:03, coldrum wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

Directionality in Cupmark/rings and gutters

Hello folks.

I’m new to the webring and am keen in learning more about British Neolithic/Early Bronze Age culture. Having spent a few years in Azerbaijan (Az) getting hooked on stone circles, dolmens, cart ruts, chambered cairns and lots of rock art etc., which are largely unexplored, I’ve noted there are comparisons to be made between Az and the UK. Given that early agriculture developed in the Caucasus region, is perhaps not surprising that rock art (and associated belief systems) may well have migrated westwards along with agricultural technology and other deeply rooted cultural beliefs.

One area that interests me is the idea of alignments in rock art. While the carvings in Azerbaijan seem to be rather primitive (like most other Stone Age architecture: e.g. there are many mini-megalithic stone circles), the intent of the alignments may have similar meanings and be to do with lunar / solar cycles for agricultural purposes and/or religious beliefs involving sunset-night time and the association with the hereafter.

Oriented carvings, I have come across invariably align approximately to the North celestial pole and solstice/equinox sunrise-sunset events. There is a wealth of carvings to demonstrate this, and is something that ought to be studied professionally. For example, some single cup mark and gutter carvings are posted for reference as the simplest example of what I am referring to. These I suspect act as pointers to the North celestial point and are most likely offset due to precession. Similar ‘pointers’ can be shown for other key sunrise/sunset events. For reference an article detailing a wider array of examples will shortly appear on line in the Azerbaijani International magazine website: http://www.azer.com.

It was of great interest to me to observe on a recent holiday visit to Mither Tap in Aberdeenshire (the site of a hilltop Iron Age fort) a familiar cup mark and double gutter carving. (Note: cup marks are often found on hilltops in Az). So far, I have not been able to find any reference to this particular carving, and suspect because of its simplicity it may have gone unnoticed. See picture. But, if correct in identifying the carving as a cup mark and associated pointing gutters – found at the summit of a fascinating hilltop in prime agricultural landscape, - this suggests the site has been of importance throughout the late Neolithic and well before the Iron Age. The find may even question the purpose of the site. Was it an observatory of sorts which hosted annual ritual ceremonies, or was it always a defensive garrison? Curiously, it is interesting here to note that the second gutter orients to the SE – the same direction as the recumbent stones in the ubiquitous Aberdeenshire stone circles. Something to ponder.

Assuming that the cup mark and gutter arrangements are indeed celestial pointers then it would be fascinating to examine the more intricate cup ring and gutters that prevail across the British Isles and Western Europe. At least one example from Northumberland that I came across on the internet - (apologies for not being able to provide a credit), which thoughtfully includes a compass, suggests potential orientation in the more intricate arrays. Note that two cup mark ring carvings on the outcrop also curiously reflect the principle orientation of the Mither Tap example, -NNW.

In order to explore the directionality of the European cup ring and gutter varieties, a large number of examples would have to be considered. With enough samples directionality should easily be tested.

If anyone in the Megalithic Portal webring is aware of such a study I would like to be informed about it. If not, I would be pleased to compile a database of cup mark, ring and gutter carvings showing compass orientation. Assistance and/or suggestions would also be welcomed here on how to best do this study.

As a working theory, I suspect that what might have happened is that the multi channelled (guttered) cupmarks found in Azerbaijan through time and distance may have evolved into stand alone carvings with single gutters acting as discrete pointers. Of course there may well be other possibilities for these particular carvings, some of which I am aware through Richard Bradley’s ‘Rock Art and the Prehistory of Atlantic Europe’, but I think it is worth a study and would welcome Megalithic Portal input.

Thanks

Kurgan.

On 2007-03-08 23:05, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-02-01 14:03, coldrum wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

Directionality in Cupmark/rings and gutters

Hello folks.

I’m new to the webring and am keen in learning more about British Neolithic/Early Bronze Age culture. Having spent a few years in Azerbaijan (Az) getting hooked on stone circles, dolmens, cart ruts, chambered cairns and lots of rock art etc., which are largely unexplored, I’ve noted there are comparisons to be made between Az and the UK. Given that early agriculture developed in the Caucasus region, is perhaps not surprising that rock art (and associated belief systems) may well have migrated westwards along with agricultural technology and other deeply rooted cultural beliefs.

One area that interests me is the idea of alignments in rock art. While the carvings in Azerbaijan seem to be rather primitive (like most other Stone Age architecture: e.g. there are many mini-megalithic stone circles), the intent of the alignments may have similar meanings and be to do with lunar / solar cycles for agricultural purposes and/or religious beliefs involving sunset-night time and the association with the hereafter.

Oriented carvings, I have come across invariably align approximately to the North celestial pole and solstice/equinox sunrise-sunset events. There is a wealth of carvings to demonstrate this, and is something that ought to be studied professionally. For example, some single cup mark and gutter carvings are posted for reference as the simplest example of what I am referring to. These I suspect act as pointers to the North celestial point and are most likely offset due to precession. Similar ‘pointers’ can be shown for other key sunrise/sunset events. For reference an article detailing a wider array of examples will shortly appear on line in the Azerbaijani International magazine website: http://www.azer.com.

It was of great interest to me to observe on a recent holiday visit to Mither Tap in Aberdeenshire (the site of a hilltop Iron Age fort) a familiar cup mark and double gutter carving. (Note: cup marks are often found on hilltops in Az). So far, I have not been able to find any reference to this particular carving, and suspect because of its simplicity it may have gone unnoticed. See picture. But, if correct in identifying the carving as a cup mark and associated pointing gutters – found at the summit of a fascinating hilltop in prime agricultural landscape, - this suggests the site has been of importance throughout the late Neolithic and well before the Iron Age. The find may even question the purpose of the site. Was it an observatory of sorts which hosted annual ritual ceremonies, or was it always a defensive garrison? Curiously, it is interesting here to note that the second gutter orients to the SE – the same direction as the recumbent stones in the ubiquitous Aberdeenshire stone circles. Something to ponder.

Assuming that the cup mark and gutter arrangements are indeed celestial pointers then it would be fascinating to examine the more intricate cup ring and gutters that prevail across the British Isles and Western Europe. At least one example from Northumberland that I came across on the internet - (apologies for not being able to provide a credit), which thoughtfully includes a compass, suggests potential orientation in the more intricate arrays. Note that two cup mark ring carvings on the outcrop also curiously reflect the principle orientation of the Mither Tap example, -NNW.

In order to explore the directionality of the European cup ring and gutter varieties, a large number of examples would have to be considered. With enough samples directionality should easily be tested.

If anyone in the Megalithic Portal webring is aware of such a study I would like to be informed about it. If not, I would be pleased to compile a database of cup mark, ring and gutter carvings showing compass orientation. Assistance and/or suggestions would also be welcomed here on how to best do this study.

As a working theory, I suspect that what might have happened is that the multi channelled (guttered) cupmarks found in Azerbaijan through time and distance may have evolved into stand alone carvings with single gutters acting as discrete pointers. Of course there may well be other possibilities for these particular carvings, some of which I am aware through Richard Bradley’s ‘Rock Art and the Prehistory of Atlantic Europe’, but I think it is worth a study and would welcome Megalithic Portal input.

Thanks

Kurgan.

On 2007-03-08 23:32, Andy B wrote:
Hello tiompan, put an http:// on that to make a link:

http://rockartuk.fotopic.net/

On 2007-03-08 23:40, brigantia wrote:
Hi George! And "Hi" to Kurgan aswell!

[
[ This message was edited by: tiompan on 2007-03-08 23:07 ]

On 2007-03-12 11:49, ragnarok wrote:
The trouble with the subject of 'rockart' is that naturally marked stones are listed as such.
Little consideration is taken into the fact that many 'cup marks' are a natural feature caused by the weathering away of deposits, such as shells or pebbles & many 'cut marks' have been caused by the movement of glaciers across the rock surface.
Some have been incorporated into prehistoric man's sites but others are simply boulder erratics, of no alignment significance.
It also has to be taken into consideration that alignments can be made with anything, some celestial body or compass point will undoubtedly 'fit'.
I'm not saying that this is always the case but it's something which has to be looked into with care I think.

On 2007-03-12 14:25, tiompan wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-03-12 11:49, ragnarok wrote:
The trouble with the subject of 'rockart' is that naturally marked stones are listed as such.
Little consideration is taken into the fact that many 'cup marks' are a natural feature caused by the weathering away of deposits, such as shells or pebbles & many 'cut marks' have been caused by the movement of glaciers across the rock surface.
Some have been incorporated into prehistoric man's sites but others are simply boulder erratics, of no alignment significance.
It also has to be taken into consideration that alignments can be made with anything, some celestial body or compass point will undoubtedly 'fit'.
I'm not saying that this is always the case but it's something which has to be looked into with care I think.

On 2007-03-12 14:25, tiompan wrote:

On 2007-03-13 15:01, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
On 2007-03-12 14:25, tiompan wrote:

On 2007-03-13 16:33, tiompan wrote:
I found An Torr & Sallachill a couple of years ago ,the rock on both examples is not too hard but certainly not granite or basalt . There are examples of engraved granite but due to the problems it tends to be less ornate than sandstone although I have found that , as if to compensate , the cups are often deeper .We don't know for sure how the markings were made but it is most likely to have been by either direct percussion woth a harder pointed rock , pick marks are often found in well preserved examples or , indirect percussion where a hard pointed rock is hammered with a hammerstone.

On 2007-03-13 17:39, ragnarok wrote:
[quote]
Do you know what type of rocks are An Torr & Sallachill?
What would a hammerstone be made from to create a cup mark in granite? Thanks.

On 2007-03-13 20:18, cropredy wrote:
http://www.solsticeproject.org/lunarmark.htm
Kevin

On 2007-03-13 21:47, cropredy wrote:
Tiompan,
Before I depart into the underworld, PLEASE read all about this place, its the biggest clue left on the planet.kevin