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Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , coldrum , Klingon , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith , sem
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Pagan v Christian Celebrations
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Pagan v Christian Celebrations |
bat400
Joined:
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Messages: 1349
from South Central Indiana, US
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|  Posted 25-11-2006 at 14:27
Thanks for the great Groundhoh Day link! I had supposed that the German-Americans had some hand in bringing it here to American shores. I love this: "They determined that the groundhog ...was a most intelligent and sensible animal..." It is a very sensible animal (and tastes good, too,) though much reduced in numbers around here since I was a child. The re-introduced coyotes think they taste good, too.
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On 2006-11-25 10:02, TheCaptain wrote:
Re Groundhog Day. This is indeed a North Americanised version of Candlemass, or the coming of spring, and indeed a Roman festival before that. See http://www.groundhog.org/history/tradition.shtml
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brigantia
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from Yorkshire & Argyll
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 15:48
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On 2006-11-25 12:29, mithra wrote:
On 2006-11-25 01:16, brigantia wrote:
''No worries. Check out Brand's Observation on Popular Antiquities, volume 1, p.298-337 for some old and good accounts of old St.John's midsummer reveries. In fact the entirity of volume 1 is completely concerned with heathen calendrical customs. Much of the more modern works on such things are based on Brand's old researches.''
Yes I'll do that - but don't forget that the summer solstice is on the 21st June, not 24th, however I can find out when it did fall on 24th....do you know off-hand when this John the Baptist's festival date actually first started?
''Hope you won't fall out with me for me being an arrogant tosser!''
Well I do have to agree with you there! Trouble is that you mistake my honesty for rudeness - whereas you have just been plain rude to me! If I think that someone is posting rubbish I believe that I have a right to try to challenge their statements - especially if those people have been down right nasty to me! Don't you agree? As for being pedantic - that certainly applies to yourself as well, and a number of other people on this forum. Anyway enough of this - it's just plain silly and boring to others, so if you want to carry on being rude then do PM me! Mithra.
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< Yes I'll do that - but don't forget that the summer solstice is on the 21st June, not 24th, however I can find out when it did fall on 24th....>
The emerging xtian mythos made it a bittova a changeable one, between 21st-24th, just like with our winter solstice, scattered between the celebration of St. Stephen (a real lunar dark-horse) and Xmas day. In northern England this period replaced some very curious celebrations of the old mythic figure, Robin Hood, whose death-date is Xmas Eve.
< do you know off-hand when this John the Baptist's festival date actually first started? >
Not 100% sure, but I thought it was at the end of the 7th century. Though a quick scan thru a few texts simply says "medieval times". It'd be nice to know for sure.
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 26-11-2006 at 00:43
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On 2006-11-25 12:47, mithra wrote:
On 2006-11-25 04:49, rbatham wrote:
''Yes Mithra, Why do you always spoil a good thread by bringing 'FACTS' into the argument? You don't know anything but 'FACTS' do you? ...... And that's a 'FACT' ''
I know, I know....who wants or needs boring old facts? -I just love being tiresome, no sorry - pedantic! Now THERE'S a FACT! Mithra 
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-11-25 13:10 ]
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 Touche
Er! I mean the french word , too -shay
Not saying you're touchy. Roy
[ This message was edited by: rbatham on 2006-11-26 10:58 ]
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mithra
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| Posted 26-11-2006 at 17:22
On 2006-11-25 15:48, brigantia wrote:
< do you know off-hand when this John the Baptist's festival date actually first started? >
''Not 100% sure, but I thought it was at the end of the 7th century. Though a quick scan thru a few texts simply says "medieval times". It'd be nice to know for sure.''
Well as the Middle Ages run from the 5th to 15th Centuries and it looks as if other Saints festival/feast days commenced around the 7th century thought I'd look up the dates when the equinoxes and solstices fell:
600 AD:
Vernal Equinox - 18th March
Summer Solstice - 19th June
Autumn Equinox - 20th Sept.
Winter Solstice - 18th Dec.
So John the Baptists festival date is 5 days off solstice.
1200 AD:
Vernal E. - 13th March
Summer S. - 14th June
Autumn E. - 16th Sept.
Winter S. - 14th Dec.
10 days off.
This is using the Imperial Roman calendar - Britain didn't change to our present day Gregorian Calendar until 1752, by which time we were 11days behind the rest of Europe. Old Christmas day was the equivalent of 6th January.
Using todays calendar dates, at the time of our 'Celts'...
500 BC:
Vernal - 26th march
summer - 28th june
autumn - 28th sept
winter - 26th dec
Further back to megalithic times....
2,500 BC:
vernal - 11th april
summer - 14th july
autumn - 13th oct.
winter - 9th jan.
Re: St. Stephen - the first christian martyr? My information gives his feast day as the 26th Dec.
Hope this is of some interest - although I realise it's not really 'on topic'! Mithra.
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mithra
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| Posted 26-11-2006 at 18:14
On 2006-11-25 07:37, mishkin wrote:
http://www.history.uk.com/churches/index.php?archive=14
Thanks for that mishkin, didn't know that carols were once band.
Thanks also Alex & Bernard for their information and all other polite posters.
Will have less time for forum for a while but will look in when I can. Mithra
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-11-26 18:19 ]
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hamish
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from Bristol
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| Posted 26-11-2006 at 18:31
Love your posts Mithra, don't be gone too long.
Hamish
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 29-11-2006 at 06:15
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On 2006-11-26 17:22, mithra wrote:
This is using the Imperial Roman calendar - Britain didn't change to our present day Gregorian Calendar until 1752, by which time we were 11days behind the rest of Europe. Old Christmas day was the equivalent of 6th January.
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I have to disagree. days taken out in England were 3rd to 14th sept, Gregory took 10 days in oct. So Christmas day was not changed. 25th Dec dates from Eusebius about 325AD. Bede gives anno domini incarnatius as 25th Mar. which 9mths later is 25th Dec. Jan 6th is 12th night,
Roy
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mithra
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| Posted 29-11-2006 at 12:04
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On 2006-11-29 06:15, rbatham wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-11-26 17:22, mithra wrote:
Old Christmas day was the equivalent of 6th January.
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I have to disagree. days taken out in England were 3rd to 14th sept, Gregory took 10 days in oct. So Christmas day was not changed...
Roy
[/quote]
Quite agree Roy - think you misunderstand my meaning. The DATE of Christmas day wasn't changed i.e. still 25th Dec. but the time of year it fell on would have been later i.e. EQUIVILENT of 6th Jan. (The 11 days were simply 'removed', therefore lost, out of calendar dates). Mithra
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rbatham
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from Western Australia
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| Posted 29-11-2006 at 23:50
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On 2006-11-29 12:04, mithra wrote:
[quote]
Quite agree Roy - think you misunderstand my meaning. The DATE of Christmas day wasn't changed i.e. still 25th Dec. but the time of year it fell on would have been later i.e. EQUIVILENT of 6th Jan. (The 11 days were simply 'removed', therefore lost, out of calendar dates). Mithra
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Yes, I see what you mean, but there's another problem. Because the julian year was too long the 'day' was gradually pushed on from 25th Dec- Jan 6th.
By 'removing' the 11 days that actually put Christmas back to where it was originally,
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mithra
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| Posted 30-11-2006 at 19:09
On 2006-11-29 23:50, rbatham wrote:
''Yes, I see what you mean, but there's another problem. Because the julian year was too long the 'day' was gradually pushed on from 25th Dec- Jan 6th.
By 'removing' the 11 days that actually put Christmas back to where it was originally,''
This gets terribly complicated! All celebration/festival calendar dates have always been somewhat 'moveable'....I've got loads of stuff on this and it's REALLY difficult!
Lots of web sites but have a look at:
http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-christian.html
Think they are out by 1 year on start date of Julian calendar (46 rather than 45 bc) but the rest of information seems to tally with other information I have.
Interesting to note that the Russians didn't adopt the Gregorian calendar until the October 25th/26th revolution of 1917 and that, that event is celebrated today on the 6th/7th of November!
The whole Gregorian calendar is calculated on the 'fact' that the vernal equinox fell on 21st March during the council of Nicaea in CE 325 (CE - Current Era) so the Gregorian calendar was calibrated for that date - thats why 10 days were dropped.
HOWEVER would this apply? Perhaps you can check on your astro.program - precession of the equinoxes? - might have made a difference? (sorry but I really AM a bit pushed for time myself todo this - will when I can!)
Also have to remember that our Gregorian calendar isn't an accurate solar calendar. 24 hours has to be added to it every 4 years (that means that the solar year is out some 6 hours- half an hour a month). Perhaps we could come up with a better one?!! Mithra.
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-11-30 22:48 ]
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