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Pagan v Christian Celebrations |
mithra
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|  Posted 23-11-2006 at 13:25
As a follow on from the Churches built on prehistoric sites I've been looking into pre-Christian (pagan) festivals/celebrations which have been high-jacked by the Church.
Would be interested to hear more, additions to following:
25th December. In the christian church the day on which the birth of jesus celebrated (although his birth date is unknown - possibly March?). But it's of pagan origin and adapted from celebrations of the winter solstice.
One of the earliest rites was the Norse 'Yule' sun worship festival. Yule logs and candles symbolised light & fire -in honour of the sun's rebirth after the winter solstice.
It was also the Persian sun deity 'mithra's' birthday and the end of the Roman's 'saturnalia' where masters & servants changed roles. Still celebrated in middle-ages when a servant was crowned 'lord of misrule'.
3rd Feb. Christian 'candlemas' - feast of the purification of the virgin mary, established by the church in 5th C, and taking the place of the roman festival of 'februa' - when candles were carried through the streets and women observed purification rites.
Lent. 40 day fast when christians recall christs suffering in the wilderness. It comes from the Saxon word 'lenct' meaning Spring - a time when enforced fasting was common in agricultural communities due to low food stores.
Easter. Christian commemorating the resurrection of christ - but derived from 'Eostre' a northern goddess of spring who was honoured in April. Re-birth of living things after the winter.
Rogationtide. When the christian priest blessed the crops, sprang from the Roman feast of 'terminus' - god of fields and landmarks.
Whitsuntide. Was a sort of village club.
Ascensiontide. Pagan well-worship.
31st Oct/1st Nov. Hallowe'en. Christian feast of Hallowmas or All Saints Day - from the celtic festival of Samhain which marked the end of the pastoral (agricultural) year and the beginning of winter. It was believed that supernatural creatures roamed and the souls of the dead were allowed to visit their former homes on Samhain eve.
What I find note able is that the christian church didn't produce a festival of their own for the Summer Solstice/ midsummer eve (celtic 'litha'?).
Perhaps the Winter solstice was more important to the ancients?.....any thoughts/views anyone?
Mithra.
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
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|  Posted 23-11-2006 at 14:55
How do......... Sorry if this is off topic . About 15 years ago I visited St. David's cathedral in Pembrokeshire, and was surprised to find the souvenir shop selling all sorts of pagan/new age stuff alongside the more traditional christian wares.
There again, I don't think the old beliefs were ever totally wiped out were they?
I dont get to visit many cathedrals etc. is this practice widespread?
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AlexHunger
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| Posted 23-11-2006 at 14:57
There is also the 6th of January (3 Kings), which was traditionally Osiris' birthday. The orthodox christian take that one more seriously than X-mass.
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rbatham
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 01:49
There is a festival celebrated in Woburn Sands Beds called 'beating the bounds' I've forgotten which day and why. It may not just be a local festival. Woburn sands used to be called Hogsty End. They have a web site, I'll look it up. Roy
PS just been googling. plenty of info 'beating the bounds'
http://www.cholesbury.com/beatbounds.htm
and others
[ This message was edited by: rbatham on 2006-11-24 02:00 ]
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Andy B
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 16:36
Link space test:
http://www.cholesbury.com/beatbounds.htm
Hmmm, what's going on?
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mithra
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 17:08
Extraordinary! I shall have to see if the villagers around here know anything about this, thanks for the link Roy (& Andy) and to everyone who has posted - interesting info. Mithra
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brigantia
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 21:09
< What I find note able is that the christian church didn't produce a festival of their own for the Summer Solstice/ midsummer eve >
So what the hell do you think the European-wide Festival of St. John was about then, ey!? There's tons of material on it.
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nicoladidsbury
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from A Cumbrian Lass
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 22:08
"3rd Feb. Christian 'candlemas' - feast of the purification of the virgin mary, established by the church in 5th C, and taking the place of the roman festival of 'februa' - when candles were carried through the streets and women observed purification rites."
The pre-roman british feast at this time of the year is called Inbolc, and it is a quarter day, between the solstice and spring equinox. Really interesting web page which links this time of the year to the British godess Briga, or Bride, or Bridgit. http://www.celticspirit.org/imbolc.htm
The wheel of the year has these feast days
Samhain 31st October (hallowmas)
Yule 21 December - winter solstice (christmas)
Inbolc 2nd February (candlemas)
Oestara 21 March - spring equinox (easter)
Beltane 1st May (feast of st phillip??)
Litha - 21st June - Summer Solstice (feast of St Alban)
Lughnasadh 1st August (Lammas)
Madron 21st September (beginning of Jewish year, and start of Muslin Ramadam - can't find any christian feast on this day though)
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mithra
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 23:03
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On 2006-11-24 21:09, brigantia wrote:
< What I find note able is that the christian church didn't produce a festival of their own for the Summer Solstice/ midsummer eve >
So what the hell do you think the European-wide Festival of St. John was about then, ey!? There's tons of material on it.
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Why did you deem it necessary to be so rude? I DID ask for additions/views etc.
Are you talking about the new testament apostle St.John who wrote the fourth gospel and the book of revelation? (Was also bishop of Ephesus.)
If so, HIS feast/festival day is on the 27th December! Mithra
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bat400
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|  Posted 24-11-2006 at 23:24
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On 2006-11-23 13:25, mithra wrote:
... Would be interested to hear more, additions to following: ...
3rd Feb. Christian 'candlemas' - feast of the purification of the virgin mary, established by the church in 5th C, and taking the place of the roman festival of 'februa' - when candles were carried through the streets and women observed purification rites.
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Did Candlemas have anything to do with weather divination? I ask because I find it interesting that this is only 1 day off (2 Feb) from the American holiday of Groundhog Day. It originated in the colonies is New England where Germans had settled. (Just in case some don't know what this is - the native "Groundhog" (also "Woodchuck" or "Whistlepig") is thought to come out of its winter den. It is sees its shadow it fortells a late spring.)
bat
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brigantia
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| Posted 24-11-2006 at 23:38
[/quote]
Why did you deem it necessary to be so rude?
[/quote]
Ohh....I thought it'd be alright. I notice that's how you speak to people on some of the other threads, so thought it'd be alright to speak to you like that aswell. What? - don't you like it?
Anyway.....
[/quote]
Are you talking about the new testament apostle St.John who wrote the fourth gospel and the book of revelation? (Was also bishop of Ephesus.)
If so, HIS feast/festival day is on the 27th December! Mithra
[/quote]
Errrrm....seems like you're references for such things are as effective as your references to works on consciousness studies! St.John the Baptist's date is June 24 (St. John's Eve, 23rd) - and records galore speak of it as the midsummer rites across Europe. Look it up dear boy! If you'd like some good references to such rites, ask nicely and I'll pass 'em on. There's buckets of the stuff.
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brigantia
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 00:14
Hi Bat!
Did Candlemas have anything to do with weather divination? I ask because I find it interesting that this is only 1 day off (2 Feb) from the American holiday of Groundhog Day. It originated in the colonies is New England where Germans had settled. (Just in case some don't know what this is - the native "Groundhog" (also "Woodchuck" or "Whistlepig") is thought to come out of its winter den. It is sees its shadow it fortells a late spring.)
bat
[/quote]
< Did Candlemas have anything to do with weather divination? >
There's certainly a number of old European weather-related pieces of folklore surrounding this date. An old saying said, "As the light grows longer, the cold grows stronger." Whilst in Scotland we find
"If Candlemas is fair and clear,
There'll be two winters in the year."
There's more I'm sure. Certainly such weather-lore rings a bell for Scotland and the west of Ireland, where our old friend the cailleach has great influence over the weather on this day. Check out Inward's Weather Lore - I'm sure there's more in there about it.
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mithra
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 00:45
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On 2006-11-24 23:38, brigantia wrote:
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Why did you deem it necessary to be so rude?
[/quote]
Ohh....I thought it'd be alright. I notice that's how you speak to people on some of the other threads, so thought it'd be alright to speak to you like that aswell. What? - don't you like it?
[/quote]
Actually I'm generally very polite to people - if you've read most of my postings you will know that. But when people are rude to me, and sometimes they do it by PM, then I return the compliment. Do not recall being rude to you though?
Re St John, my mistake - I looked up the wrong one. So you are right - I stand corrected and I thank you for the information as I hadn't realised that there was a Christian festival for mid-summer.
That's why I posted this thread - to find out more. Mithra.
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mithra
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 00:49
Thanks for the information nicoladidsbury - I'll check some dates as the quarter days don't appear to add up today but I'll check for 600 - 500 BC.
Bat, interesting....I'll check it out. Thanks
Mithra
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-11-25 12:34 ]
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brigantia
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 01:16
Hi Mithra
[/quote]
Actually I'm generally very polite to people - if you've read most of my postings you will know that. But when people are rude to me, and sometimes they do it by PM, then I return the compliment. Do not recall being rude to you though?
[/quote]
It wasn't the "being rude to me" as much as some of the pedantic way in which you spoke to other people. I'm just one of those people who doesn't like that attitude at all - and when I see it, I mirror it. In doing so, it tends to elicit one of those d-SoCs (discreet states of consciousness) which most people take for granted as not even being a state of consciousness (feeling hurt, upset, angry, irritable, etc). And I'll do this to make one person feel, perhaps, as hurt or annoyed as the person they've hurt or upset. I don't like doing it, as it tends to simply encourage the arrogant attitude of the individual concerned, who actually tend to be unaware of what they're doing. If you've worked in therapeutic sessions, you'll know what I mean. I think it's something we all do. But it's weird how, when you throw such an attitude back at a person, they don't see how that's what they do sometimes - or even worse, they don't actually care! Anyway....all that nonsense aside...
[/quote]
Re St John, my mistake - I looked up the wrong one.
[/quote]
No worries. Check out Brand's Observation on Popular Antiquities, volume 1, p.298-337 for some old and good accounts of old St.John's midsummer reveries. In fact the entirity of volume 1 is completely concerned with heathen calendrical customs. Much of the more modern works on such things are based on Brand's old researches.
Hope you won't fall out with me for me being an arrogant tosser!
Cheers - Paul
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rbatham
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 04:49
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On 2006-11-24 23:38, brigantia wrote:
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Why did you deem it necessary to be so rude?
Ohh....I thought it'd be alright. I notice that's how you speak to people on some of the other threads, so thought it'd be alright to speak to you like that aswell. What? - don't you like it?
..
[/quote] Yes Mithra, Why do you always spoil a good thread by bringing 'FACTS' into the argument? You don't know anything but 'FACTS' do you? ...... And that's a 'FACT'
Roy
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mishkin
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 07:37
Well as you are getting interpersonal again what about singing some pagan carols, banned at one stage by the church but they could'nt keep a good tune down and so we still sing them today... Boar's Head is a good one..
http://www.history.uk.com/churches/index.php?archive=14
Read somewhere that they come from ring dancing, (or that they are part of) and thats why some of our stone circles have their funny names and folklore...
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TheCaptain
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 10:02
Re Groundhog Day. This is indeed a North Americanised version of Candlemass, or the coming of spring, and indeed a Roman festival before that. See http://www.groundhog.org/history/tradition.shtml
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mithra
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 12:29
On 2006-11-25 01:16, brigantia wrote:
''No worries. Check out Brand's Observation on Popular Antiquities, volume 1, p.298-337 for some old and good accounts of old St.John's midsummer reveries. In fact the entirity of volume 1 is completely concerned with heathen calendrical customs. Much of the more modern works on such things are based on Brand's old researches.''
Yes I'll do that - but don't forget that the summer solstice is on the 21st June, not 24th, however I can find out when it did fall on 24th....do you know off-hand when this John the Baptist's festival date actually first started?
''Hope you won't fall out with me for me being an arrogant tosser!''
Well I do have to agree with you there! Trouble is that you mistake my honesty for rudeness - whereas you have just been plain rude to me! If I think that someone is posting rubbish I believe that I have a right to try to challenge their statements - especially if those people have been down right nasty to me! Don't you agree? As for being pedantic - that certainly applies to yourself as well, and a number of other people on this forum. Anyway enough of this - it's just plain silly and boring to others, so if you want to carry on being rude then do PM me! Mithra.
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mithra
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| Posted 25-11-2006 at 12:47
On 2006-11-25 04:49, rbatham wrote:
''Yes Mithra, Why do you always spoil a good thread by bringing 'FACTS' into the argument? You don't know anything but 'FACTS' do you? ...... And that's a 'FACT' ''
I know, I know....who wants or needs boring old facts? -I just love being tiresome, no sorry - pedantic! Now THERE'S a FACT! Mithra 
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-11-25 13:10 ]
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