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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Exciting Bluestone discovery
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Exciting Bluestone discovery |
Salopian
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|  Posted 25-08-2006 at 10:53
Kev, I'm not getting drawn in as that's the mechanism by which other threads deteriorate so this reply will have to do.
Your remark, "If you cannot drop your predudices and actually try and think how the stones could be moved" apart from being patronising was actually particularly ill-directed as I have, a lot, for a long time and have actually helped move a lot of huge stones myself using a large number of techniques, as has the wicked Jimit. You're up against people who've actually done it so we don't need to be told to "actually try and think how the stones could be moved" thanks very much.
Sheer muscle power, lubrication and mechanical advantage are the three elements that are most obvious techniques, in various combinations and designs. Bear in mind a lever is the most efficient machine in the world and could move the world and since the ancients had trees and Schauberger never proposed anything half so clever as a lever or an A frame he's well down the list of thinkers on the subject so Occam says ignore him for now and so shouldyou if you believe in logical thought.
"my mention of viktor schauberger is to demonstrate how an enormous weight can be carried in water , when normally it would sink....
....All of viktor schaubergers works on moving logs can be verified, to move the stones from Wales , they would have needed to be transported on logs"
Not true. Hide boats existed and have been found and a bronze age stone-carrying barge has been found, complete with stone still on board.Someone from Stonehengineers went to the museums to look at them and report back. We're not making wild claims we're trying to think about it properly.
But again, please look at the forum description. What's happening at Woodhenge and Stonehenge is really exciting and this thread could run and run if only its allowed to.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 11:11
Salopian, Sorry , but you are again trying to claim that I am in some way attempting to stop this thread, which I am in no way , YOU are the one who started this, by jumping straight on me about daring to post, all i was doing was offering an explanation of how an heavy object can be moved in water, Schaubergers methods worked.
The weight of the stones is the determining factor, any method that alters this weight relative to the element they are travelling in should be examined.
As for hide boats or tin boats, its irrelevant, its the element they are travelling upon, and its ability to float upon that element.
This ability alters at different density, talking of which, jimit, hmmmm.hes sunk to the bottom of my opinion.
Kevin
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 11:26
This ability alters at different density, talking of which, jimit, hmmmm.hes sunk to the bottom of my opinion.
Tough.
I know him very well. He knows more about ancient sites than you and lizard boy by a spectacular margin and I have enormous respect for his expertise but he can't bear to be here amidst all this nonsense.
Hard luck on the Meg Portal Forum i reckon, but you know differently no doubt. C'est la vie, Freedom of Speech is all, eh? My windows are calling, I'll leave you to educate your entranced and delighted but visibly dwindling congregation some more.
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expatpete
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 12:01
I have followed the discussion re Glacial / Human effort in getting the bluestones from Pembroke to Wiltshire with interest .
May I throw my bit of light on the subject of moving large lumps of rock around.
Before I retired I was involved in mining/ quarries and movement of large heavy objects.
I look at the subject this way :-
If you want a large Bluestone from Pembroke to be in Wiltshire then - presuming that the whole operation was done under human control - then the first thing to consider is the weight/size of the finished article .
In Pembroke you may well have to be able to find a piece of stone that was big enough for your needs.It is highly unlikely that it was exactly the correct size and/or shape - especially as you needed several more.
So to reduce the difficulty of transportation you reduce the size/ weight by dressing the stone to the minimum required, where it was found.
The dross from the dressing would be lost in the scree around the "quarry" and therefore not be found today as "evidence" but the lightest possible piece would have to be transported.
If on the other hand the Bluestones were transported to or near the site by glacial action then where they were found by the ancients would be marked by a considerable quantity of dross- and if they were dressed at the final location - then there should be heaps of bluestone chippings in the area around Stonehenge.
I go for the boat theory !
Just a thought
Keep the thread running
All the best
ExPat pete
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 12:18
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On 2006-08-25 10:53, Salopian wrote:
You're up against people who've actually done it so we don't need to be told to "actually try and think how the stones could be moved" thanks very much.
Sheer muscle power, lubrication and mechanical advantage are the three elements that are most obvious techniques,
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Good old Archimedes: it was him who said "give me a large enough lever and I can move the world" wasn't it? This is the point isn't it Salopian? - most modern folk have never even tried to move objects the size and weight of the stone henge megaliths. Not even with the aid of modern mechanical machines. So perhaps the best ones to comment are the people who've ACTUALLY tried it (like yourself and Jimmit). As for muscle power? They would have had plenty of it I suppose and a scant regard for health and safety I suppose. It takes one heck of an organised society to construct something like stone henge. Over what time frame?
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mithra
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 12:33
On 2006-08-25 10:05, mishkin wrote:
''... he also says that 2 of the bluestones at Stonehenge are not from Prescely but from Mill Bay, Cosheston.''
If this is true then it could be a good case for glacier action as there's no record of a outcrop of spotted Dolerite (bluestones) around Cosheston. The Preseli outcrop is some 20 miles NNW.
Jason, it's more rugged around Snowdonia due to volcanic action.
Expat Pete, yes good points. I still feel that it may be entirely possible that the bluestones could've been brought at least nearer their mark by glacier action though. How about these fragments found which show signs of being worked? Perhaps there's more.
Looking at glacier action just during the Anglian age (between 300,000 to 250,000 years ago) the glaciation did a easterly movement cutting across the Bristol channel from the NW & Wales - looks like a 'spur'. During the later Wolstonian period huge melt water lakes were formed which burst washing great boulders great distances.
The ice-ages are too complex for me to be able to describe in short! Mithra.
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-25 12:46 ]
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 13:29
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On 2006-08-25 12:33, mithra wrote:
During the later Wolstonian period huge melt water lakes were formed which burst washing great boulders great distances.
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Puts me in mind of glacial lake Missoula which again when it burst carried boulders hundreds of miles. See http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/ Of course other landscape features arose as a result of the flood.
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 13:29
"then there should be heaps of bluestone chippings in the area around Stonehenge. "
I think there are aren't there, very large quantities. Or is that sarsen? Can't remember.
Dressing them in Wales to reduce their weight for transportation might not have been all that crucial as the bluestones are relative tiddlers, the biggest about 6 tons. The biggest blocks Jimit and i were involved with moving (not very far admittedly) were 17 tons as i recall, with a team of only about 30 people. ( It's all in the wrist action  )
On the other hand, the Millenium Project, moving a 4 ton bluestone from Wales with a team of hundreds and £100k of lottery money was a complete pigs ear of a job in terms of pulling the stone on land, not to mention the little matter of dropping it and losing it at the bottom of the sea off milford haven!
PS I wish you'd all shut up about meltwater lakes bursting their banks. You're beginning to convince me!
[ This message was edited by: Salopian on 2006-08-25 13:40 ]
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rbatham
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 13:51
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On 2006-08-25 13:29, Salopian wrote:
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not to mention the little matter of dropping it and losing it at the bottom of the sea off milford haven!
[ This message was edited by: Salopian on 2006-08-25 13:40 ]
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has anyone thought to look at the bottom of Milford haven to see if any were dropped ? come on you scuba divers. Roy
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 14:16
Salopian,
You're continuous attack on me is sickening.
I have posted nothing on this thread other than a reference to schaubergers method of moving heavy logs in water, if I had come on talking about lizards ( as you do non stop )I couldunderstand a complaint, or if I had suggested merlin moved em.
No at every opportunity you try to entwine me in some semi ridiculous accusations, I would ask you to state your agenda, same as I asked an other who stayed silent?
Have you a masonic connection?, a religious belief system?
, what is the problem?
Jasonvaughn,
I cannot comment about those that tried moving the stones, myself as a timed served heating eng , with a subsequent fifteen years installing enormous boilers and chimneys, I have a really good background in moving heavy objects.
If there was any way to make the operation of moving an heavy object available, I would be dense not to consider it?
Kevin
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 14:27
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On 2006-08-25 13:51, rbatham wrote:
has anyone thought to look at the bottom of Milford haven to see if any were dropped ? come on you scuba divers. Roy
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My mind was beginning to turn that way Roy - if they had been transporting via the sea they'd have lost a few stones in the drink. Maybe more so at the point of embarkation and offloading? Only it's an awful big sea and after all these years would the stones be buried / hidden below the ocean floor?
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 16:06
There was talk of a diver finding one. Google? (but don't confuse it with the Millenium stone that was located and recovered)
We did chat about hiring some gear and sending our most gullible member down to look, to make us rich and famous, but we never got round to it. It'll still be there if anyone fancies it.
Kev, no I'm not a Mason but thanks for the invite.
Are you confusing yourself with Mike? He's the one that says they're evil l----ds.
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Jimit
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|  Posted 25-08-2006 at 16:28
For those who support the glacial theory this site gives a good overview... http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~brianj/bluestones59.html
...And for those who don't... http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/wiltshire/boscombe/bowmen/stonehenge_bluestones.html
It has long been known that the "Bluestones", a catch all title for about 4 different rocks, only came from the general area of the Preseli mountains and not one particular quarry. As that part of Wales was certainly glaciated, they may well have been transported a short distance and deposited together.
Jasonvaughn's post about Lake Missoula was most interesting but have we any evidence to suggest that this happened in S Wales?
Doesn't a glacier or ice front normally drop its load of rock and other debris in the form of drumlins and eskers as it retreats?
My biggest problem with the glacier theory is the paucity of stones found <100? One would expect a glacier to have transported 100s or 1,000s of times more and of all sizes, to date none have been found between the mountains and Stonehenge.
The stray bluestone found in Boles Barrow(?) need not be a paradox if we propose that even before SH1 (2,800BCE) was constructed the bluestones had
already been bought to the area (we cannot date the transportation) and erected somewhere nearby as a proto-Stonehenge, some have,after all, the same mortise and tenon arangement as SH3. The bluestones were then dismantled and re-arranged to fit into the later monument. We know that the bluestones were present in some form as early as SH2 (2,100BCE) so perhaps they have been moved at least 4 times in their life!
Jim.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 17:08
Salopian, it was no invite.
I do know some masons, and they like religious people get hot under the collar about what I do.
I am just concerned that you may be letting any such belief system override your common sense?
If the stones came from presseli by hand, would you not admit thet there must be a very powerfull reason for all of that effort?
And if the alter stone is from Milford haven, why, does that have a different quality to the bluestones?
Kevin
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 17:33
Salopian, it was no invite.
I do know some masons, and they like religious people get hot under the collar about what I do.
I am just concerned that you may be letting any such belief system override your common sense?
Ha! Almighty Leylinus forbid that ANYONE here should let their beliefs override their common sense!
If the stones came from presseli by hand, would you not admit thet there must be a very powerfull reason for all of that effort?
Yes. But I have a horrible feeling you're going to tell me you know what it was and it was something amazing and take the discussion up Tangent Alley again. Please don't..
Think of this part of the forum as moderated by Newton with an electric cattle prod and we can all get on fine.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 18:43
salopian makitupious, if I were to mention any such thing, I would as requested link over to the sacred sites section.
If I at all stray off the dead straight pathway laid out in front of me pointing that way, I will expect you to re-direct me forthwith, but.
If I am just talking as I have in this thread about the subject at hand, please dont get on your high lizidious horse theme about me.
Kevin
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 20:08
Flashearth.com, 51 57 2 n, 4 42 41 w.
Who knows why, not I
mynacachlogddu.
follow the stream downstream?
Kevin
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mithra
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 21:02
Why is Milford Haven mentioned as the possible port? Was it indeed a port around 2,000 BC?
I know a port was made there in the 1790's and that the Vikings sheltered in the estuary 790 -1066 AD but can find no record of it being a port previously, any further information on this?
Fishguard, Newport or Cardigan where nearer ports for transport of stones from the Preseli Hills and St. Davids is known to be an ancient port.
The Green micaceous sandstone used as the Altar Stone at Stonehenge (which once stood upright) reputedly came from Milford Haven, how do they know this?
Geologists think that a large glacial lake existed, in the Wolstonian glaciation period, between ice in the Bristol channel and high ground in south which overflowed. Where to I wonder. Mithra.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 21:14
I just followed the stream down stream.
It pops out at what is now called milford haven.
It may have bin called bluestone setiofious?
Its just a possible, as is your glacier, for some reason I settled on this spot?
If they came from there , they came from there?
How , by which train?
They got there, and the people there were happy, WHY?
Fashion ?, spotty stones were in that year?
WHY , put them where they did?
WHY keep moving them?, musical stones?
Kevin
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ryszard
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 22:02
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On 2006-08-25 21:02, mithra wrote:
Why is Milford Haven mentioned as the possible port? Was it indeed a port around 2,000 BC?
I know a port was made there in the 1790's and that the Vikings sheltered in the estuary 790 -1066 AD but can find no record of it being a port previously, any further information on this?
Fishguard, Newport or Cardigan where nearer ports for transport of stones from the Preseli Hills and St. Davids is known to be an ancient port.
The Green micaceous sandstone used as the Altar Stone at Stonehenge (which once stood upright) reputedly came from Milford Haven, how do they know this?
Geologists think that a large glacial lake existed, in the Wolstonian glaciation period, between ice in the Bristol channel and high ground in south which overflowed. Where to I wonder. Mithra.
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The stream (Eastern Cleddau) which originates near Carn Menyn (or Carn Meini) OS Grid SN 142 324, where most of the bluestones came from, empties into Milford Haven. It's almost "all downhill" even on dry land.
The other ports you mention entail very long or very difficult land transport. (Carn Menyn is at the Eastern end of the Preselis, Crymmych being the nearest village.) Also the sea journey would have involved great dangers of tidal flows and rip-currents around St David's Head and Skomer island, assuming coastwise navigation inthose days.
Also the Altar stone came from the shores of Mill Bay, Cosheston OS 000 050, on Milford Haven. This perhaps gave people the idea that the bluestones came that way.
How geologists know those things they better answer for themselves, I'm just parroting what I've read.
About the bluestones themselves.
There are chippings of bluestones on the site of the Gteater Stonehenge Cursus, showing they were worked there, in, I'm told +/- 3400 BC.
Even before that Carn Menyn was a quarry for stone axes which have been found widely distributed in Wales, with some in S England & some in Ireland.
The bluestone in Bowls Barrow is said to have been placed there at roughly the same time as the Cursus.
The origin of the stones, according to a Pembs National Park booklet is:
1. 60 of spotted dolerite from South side of Carn Menyn 142 324 & Carn Ddafad-Las 148 329.
2. 3 of unspotted dolerite from North side of Carn Menyn.
3. 5 of volcanic ash from Foel Drygarn 157 337.
4. 4 of dark blue rhyolite with white speckles from Carn Alw 139 338.
5. 2 of sandstone (altar stone being one of them) from Mill Bay, Cosheston (east "end" of Milford Haven).
I prefer the human transport theory, but have been told that I'm a "romantic"!!!
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