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Exciting Bluestone discovery |
Salopian
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|  Posted 24-08-2006 at 11:27
(Let's keep the discussion real, eh?)
This is great stuff -
http://www.eternalidol.com/
although this remark -
"All in all, the find was a cause for genuine excitement, while all those present could not help but feel sorry for those that subscribe to the glacial theory of how the bluestones came to Salisbury Plain"
.... whilst being a bit of fun, doesn't really mean there's any more evidence to disprove the glaciation theory IMO.
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mithra
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 12:24
On 2006-08-24 11:27, Salopian wrote:
''.... whilst being a bit of fun, doesn't really mean there's any more evidence to disprove the glaciation theory IMO.''
Quite agree. (I'm a subscriber to the bluestones being brought by glacier action)
But how about this for an idea - perhaps the bluestones at Stonehenge were pinched from Woodhenge?
If not, and they find more evidence for bluestones being erected at Woodhenge, where did they go? I wonder if there's any buildings in area using this stone. Mithra.
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Salopian
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 12:32
But how about this for an idea - perhaps the bluestones at Stonehenge were pinched from Woodhenge?
Absolutely. And/or the sarsens. And one or other or both from Avebury (the alleged bluestone chip at Silbury). And from the stonehenge cursus where they're looking for another possible bluestone monument.
To borrow from the song...
"It all makes PhDs for the academic man to do"
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 13:17
Hmm - all good food for thought. This is news to me, blusetones and glaciation, but please excuse my ignorance. Judging by the size of some of the glacial erratics I've come across it seems entirely feasible to get the bluestones from the Preseli hills to Salisbury plain by glacial action. Do you think they would have gathered them from a wide area or would the stones have been dumped in a narrow zone?
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rbatham
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 14:01
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On 2006-08-24 13:17, jasonvaughn wrote:
Hmm - all good food for thought. This is news to me, blusetones and glaciation, but please excuse my ignorance. Judging by the size of some of the glacial erratics I've come across it seems entirely feasible to get the bluestones from the Preseli hills to Salisbury plain by glacial action. Do you think they would have gathered them from a wide area or would the stones have been dumped in a narrow zone?
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This argument was in vogue whe I was at school 1950's. Since then done a lot of reading and find a lot of disagreement about the extent of the ice sheets, some say they were no further south tha the Pennines, hence the more undulating type of country in the south with no deep scoured valleys. for the Blue stones to get to Salisbury plain fron Prescelly would mean Easterly movement,whereas the ice moved more Southerly. Roy
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Salopian
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 14:54
I started off thinking glaciation, no way, but there's an awful lot about it on the net and ice sheets can move in funny ways apparently - and leave very little other evidence. That there's no trail of bluestones deposited back towards Wales isn't conclusive apparently. The whole lot might have been delivered in a neat pack, right to Stonehenge!
Aubrey Burl is pro-glaciation and I find it hard to go against him.
If i had to lay a bet though I'd back Men (and women), just about. Mostly because I want it to be so.
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 15:32
Salopian - the thing about glaciation is that it solves the problem of how the hell do you get bluestones from wales to the salisbury plain in pre historic times: let glaciers do all the hard work!
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Salopian
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| Posted 24-08-2006 at 15:45
Well, we've done quite a lot of research into bronze age boats in Stonehengineers, which existed but are often said to be too hazardous and our thought is that they could use a barge (which existed) towed by a boat (which also did) so the sea crossing would be a lot safer, and then tow the barge up the rivers maybe.
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rbatham
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 06:19
[quote]
On 2006-08-24 14:54, Salopian wrote:
I started off thinking glaciation, no way, but there's an awful lot about it on the net and ice sheets can move in funny ways apparently - and leave very little other evidence. That there's no trail of bluestones deposited back towards Wales isn't conclusive apparently. The whole lot might have been delivered in a neat pack, right to Stonehenge!
Aubrey Burl is pro-glaciation and I find it hard to go against him.
If i had to lay a bet though I'd back Men (and women), just about. Mostly because I want it to be so.
[/quote One argument against glaciation is the strata in the south of England, The deep clay around Bedford and London, limestone in the Cotswolds, chalk in the south downs,(chilterns?) all being soft should all have been abraded. severely. My bet is also "human kind" Roy
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 07:59
Whilst my knowledge of glaciation is limited to half-forgotten school geography lessons, the evidence for it seems pretty clear around where I live in th Midlands, where it is known to have reached its limits - a few massive erratics dotted about but more significantly you can go out in any field and pick up a hundred different types of pebbles from goodness knows where in a matter of moments, whereas doing the same thing in Wiltshire produces virtually nothing but flints.
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 08:33
When you think of the ruggedness of snowdonia and its ice carved landscape and then go down to south wales there's a distinct lack of glacial activity. Or so it seems to my untrained eye. Up until now I'd always thought the bluestones were moved by human hand. Transport by sea / river seems ok it just seems to be a hell of a dangerous activity - capsize and sinking. How do you load such a big lump of rock onto a boat in prehistory? Do you wait for low tide, load the boat and wait for the tide to come in? I suppose you could slide a megalith into a boat. But again the hazard of sinking would be very real.
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 09:14
Jasonvaughn,
Cool clean water.
We have forgotten the magic qualities of water, especially at 4 degrees.
This man was a magician, or in other words he used his brain , the timing and temperature of the water used would be critical.
I dont know when the severn estuary is around this temperature, but spring time seem best bet?
By watching streams in the night, Viktor schauberger noted how pebbles danced on the top of water, I have been out at the depth of night , when the moons influence makes the water suddenly gush from the ground, cool clean water.
Ancient mankind will have been super aware of all around him/her, not like now .
http://www.hasslberger.com/tecno/tecno_8.htm
Kevin
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Salopian
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 09:20
Kevin, this is an interesting discussion. Please see opening remark and forum description.
I was going to tell jason about some evidence based work we'd done about loading boats but if its going to go the way of most other threads I'll go off and clean my windows instead.
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 09:27
Here here Salopian. Just for once guys can we please keep the thread to verifiable stuff and theories that can be scientifically or rationaly investigated, prooved or disprooved. And absolutely nothing about bloody reptiles.
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Jimit
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|  Posted 25-08-2006 at 09:43
Agreed, guys. 
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 09:50
Salopian, my mention of viktor schauberger is to demonstrate how an enormous weight can be carried in water , when normally it would sink.
If you cannot drop your predudices and actually try and think how the stones could be moved, then you may as well go clean your windows?
Jasonvaughn,
All of viktor schaubergers works on moving logs can be verified, to move the stones from Wales , they would have needed to be transported on logs, please do not try and assign any reference to reptiles to my name , I am sick of the pathetic attemps at doing this, I am talking about how they may have moved the stones.
Jimit, 0.
Kevin
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mishkin
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 10:05
Meant to put this on earlier- Dillywn Miles in the Pembrokeshire Coast National park -
Grimes in his article says that water transport will be from the Milford Haven estuary, he also says that 2 of the bluestones at Stonehenge are not from Prescely but from Mill Bay, Cosheston. He reckons the land route would have followed the "Flemings Way" which in turn was probably based on old prehistoric tracks, to the tidal limits of the Western Cleddau near Havordfordwest, or Eastern Cleddau below Canaston Bridge. (tidal mills to be found at Carew and Black Mill, nr, Canaston). Carew tidal mill is an atmospheric place with the norman castle brooding over the scene, well worth a visit.
W.F.Grimes by the way wrote that article in the book but it may be considered out of date. he did a lot of work on the prehistoric monuments round Pembrokeshire, but of course was responsible for nosing out good temporary air bases for ww2, on prehistoric sites, which I will never forgive him for!!
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
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|  Posted 25-08-2006 at 10:07
How do,............ Speaking of boats, there's been a nice little find at Milford Haven.
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 10:11
Yes they're digging the trench for the gas pipeline and discovered a bronze age canoe. Made of oak, or so I gathered from news. Apparently it's a good opportunity for lots of archaeological discoveries. Kevin - I didn't mean to associate your name with the dreaded R word. Stones floating on logs - that's stones in boats isn't it?
[ This message was edited by: jasonvaughn on 2006-08-25 10:15 ]
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cropredy
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| Posted 25-08-2006 at 10:36
Jasonvaughn,
I have no idea about boat construction, other than they will have been wooden?
The ability of water to carry a load will be central to the moving of the bluestones?
I have been crawling all over Wales with google and flashearth trying to find the best route out to sea from where the stones are reported to come from, there is hardly a shortage of water in Wales?
I came to the conclusion that Milford Haven was the best route.
If the stones were on logs and floated down streams , as VIKTOR SCHAUBERGER describes and did, then their movement to the sea could be achieved, imo, whether they then would be transported on more sea worthy vessels, I have no idea.
As for getting them up the Avon, I would assume a free route( no weirs as at present ) and by an intimate knowledge and water craft of the flows , again I can see them been taken almost directly to close by to where they are now.
The Westerly air flows would be in your favour all the way, so good sails would assist?
Kevin ( steaming )
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