Featured Title:
Free book with orders of £10 or over in our shop |
 |
| Roman Britain |
 |
| Login |
|
Don't have an account yet? You can create one. As a registered user you have some advantages like your own home page, fewer ads, and your contributions link to your page. |
| Who's Online |
There are currently, 125 guests and 2 members online.
You are a guest. To join in, please register for free by clicking here |
| |
Moderated by : Andy B , TimPrevett , Klingon , sem , MickM , TheCaptain , bat400 , coldrum , davidmorgan , Runemage , SolarMegalith
The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
General Forum >> Anglo-Saxons, Native Britons and Surviving Genes
|
 |
| Author |
Anglo-Saxons, Native Britons and Surviving Genes |
AnewMerlinian
Joined:
17-12-2004
Messages: 164
 OFF-Line
|  Posted 12-08-2006 at 05:52
The 28 July 2006 issue of 'Science' magazine had a piece on p.419, (near the front as they number their pages annually), titled: "Anglo-Saxon Apartheid?" Here follows the link:
"Random Samples" 'Science' Vol 313, 28 July 2006
A brief Google brought up similar information on the National Geographic website:
"Ancient Britain had apartheid-like society, study suggests"
This would seem to conflict with at least one other study, (sidebar link, same article):
"British have changed little since last ice age, gene study says"
One can reconcile the two points, in part, by speculating that surviving free Britons withdrew to Wales and Scotland, (to some extent, Cornwall); thus making the English a largely Germanic people, and their fellow Britons largely Celtic... which is, I think, common understanding.
This has also become part of the 'Stones Forum' thread, "Did Druids use Stonehenge?".
[ This message was edited by: AnewMerlinian on 2006-08-12 06:06 ]
 Profile
 Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-08-2006 at 14:15
Trouble with this DNA testing is that it doesn't go far enough back in historic time.
What we call the Celts, Gaels and Goidels only arrived here around 600 BC and the Angles, Saxons and Jutes between the 5th and 7th centuries.
(Also there's the Roman and Viking bloodlines, not to mention already previously established peoples such as the Picts.)
Only a small amount of the current population has been involved in any DNA testing program and out of those about 30% are not in this gene pool - possibly more if they were able to test everyone.
Apparently there is a book out which goes back further - research into the oldest tribes/peoples known to have populated the British Isles.
A friend has already sent for this, so I will post more details. Mithra.
Profile
Reply
|
AnewMerlinian
Joined:
17-12-2004
Messages: 164
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-08-2006 at 19:10
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-14 14:15, mithra wrote:
What we call the Celts, Gaels and Goidels only arrived here around 600 BC
|
|
Please look to my first post to page 8 of the thread, "Did Druids use Stonehenge?" on the 'Stones' forum: "I think we'll find that the forces are quietly withdrawing from the field -- in terms of professionals who'll stake their reputations on a Celtic invasion of the Isles."
Roman and Viking bloodlines? Absolutely.
Picts predating the Gaels (?). It's not that I consider this impossible, but I wonder what you rest it on.
Quote:
| Only a small amount of the current population has been involved in any DNA testing program
|
|
Sample size matters, of course. But I'm not prepared to throw out their data.
Quote:
|
and out of those about 30% are not in this gene pool
|
|
Which gene pool? Are you referring to:
A book. What book..?
[ This message was edited by: AnewMerlinian on 2006-08-14 19:19 ]
Profile
Reply
|
coldrum
Joined:
17-09-2002
Messages: 780
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-08-2006 at 21:34
Could the book be The Seven Daughters of Eve, by Bryan Sykes .
Also theres a more recent book called Tribes of Britain by David Miles which goes into DNA research.
In Search of Chedder man by Larry Barham is worth a read.
There always seems to be some new finding in this type of research.
It'd be interesting to see what they would find if they had a sample of my DNA.
Costs a bit to have it done though so unless some university in my area is doing some research it'll be on my to do list for quite a while.
Would be interesting though to have more DNA sampling in the UK, not just the handfull that has been done so far.
Who knows what might pop up.
These links might be of help:
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/index.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/03/08/nched08.html
http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm
http://www.ftdna.com/(diufehqx3zco3lfuop4s5gbu)/public/mtDNA_K/index.aspx
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0325_040325_hominiddna.html
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/ScienceSpectra-pages/SciSpect-14-98.html
http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/genetics/iceage.pdf
http://www.454.com/downloads/news-events/mtDNANeandertalarticle.pdf
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/ingman.html
http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX022535.html
This is just a few of the countless other sites out there.
Interesting subject.
Profile
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 14-08-2006 at 22:26
Thanks Coldrum for your information and links, which I will read. Yes the book my friend has ordered is 'Tribes of Britain' which I shall borrow.
ANM. thought it was well accepted that the tribes known as the 'Picts' were in present day Scotland before the Goidels arrived. What references have you got to the contrary?
Don't forget that the term Anglo-Saxon is a collective term which covers the Angle, Saxon and Jute 'invasions'. The Angles obviously settled largely in East Anglia, the Saxons in Essex & Sussex and the Jutes in Kent. But we are talking 5th to 7th century AD here which is very much considered recent history. Mithra.
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 15-08-2006 at 13:36
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-14 14:15, mithra wrote:
Trouble with this DNA testing is that it doesn't go far enough back in historic time.
What we call the Celts, Gaels and Goidels only arrived here around 600 BC and the Angles, Saxons and Jutes between the 5th and 7th centuries.
(Also there's the Roman and Viking bloodlines, not to mention already previously established peoples such as the Picts.)
Only a small amount of the current population has been involved in any DNA testing program and out of those about 30% are not in this gene pool - possibly more if they were able to test everyone.
Apparently there is a book out which goes back further - research into the oldest tribes/peoples known to have populated the British Isles.
A friend has already sent for this, so I will post more details. Mithra.
|
|
You failed to mention Danes, Gypsies, Hugenots (french), Dutch, That have come in more recent times. The poulation of england when Victoria came to the throne was only 17 million. Since then a lot of mixing. the modern Britain is a real mongrel. ( in the species context). Roy
Profile
 Email
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 15-08-2006 at 16:23
On 2006-08-15 13:36, rbatham wrote:
''You failed to mention Danes, Gypsies, Hugenots (french), Dutch, That have come in more recent times. The poulation of england when Victoria came to the throne was only 17 million.''
Ay and a great many others e.g. Chinese, Africans, Indians....!
I'm really trying to sort out what the earlier,or earliest known, populace was.
Population increase is also up due to the fact that people live longer, breed for longer and there are less birth and infant deaths than there was in 'the old days'. (Also diseases that were once fatal are preventable or treatable, no localised battles etc.)
So world population and integration is higher anyway. Mithra
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 07:20
Quote:
|
I'm really trying to sort out what the earlier,or earliest known, populace was.
Population increase is also up due to the fact that people live longer, breed for longer and there are less birth and infant deaths than there was in 'the old days'. (Also diseases that were once fatal are preventable or treatable, no localised battles etc.)
So world population and integration is higher anyway. Mithra
|
|
I can find no figures for population before the Victorian era. ( no census). The black death 1348/9 is said to have carried off about 1/3 populace. how many? don't know. Anyway the point here is that the english gene pool is so mixed that a Dna survey could possibly not show a line back to antiquity. The Basques and the Jews have maintianed some integrity through the ages. perhaps some parts of Wales? Who were real ancient britons? When the Celts arrived about 600 BC did they invade? Did they annihilate the britons? Or did they mix and add to the gene pool? If they mixed then ancient genes may still exist in Wales.Here's a point for discussion. My old history books. Vol1 printed 1866 says. "The first inhabitants of our isles were the sons of GOMER, son of JAPHET, son of NOAH" Could this have some truth? Noah's sons Shem, Ham and Japhet. Shem and founded the Hamites and Semites. Japhet disappears from jewish history. An excellent book that you should read is NOAH'S FLOOD by profs William Ryan and Walter Pitman. A genuine scientific study gives convincing evidence that the 'Black Sea' was dry land with a large fresh water lake fed by 4 rivers Danube, Don, Dniester, Dnieper. ( Garden of Eden had 4 rivers. odd thhat). About 5760 BC with rising sea levels The Mediterranean burst through the boshorus and flooded the whole basin. the inhabitants had plenty of time to escape and spread in all direction. By the 3rd generation they could have reached Briton. If sea levels were 300ft lower then there would have been no English Channel as such, the simply walked in. Suppose then a DNA survey in Wales showed an affinity to the Jews that would go a long way to prove our ancestry. Mithra, if you haven't read Noah.s Flood, get it. I'm sure it's your type of book. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 13:04
[quote]
On 2006-08-16 07:20, rbatham wrote:
'' Who were real ancient britons?''
This is something I'm currently working on. Evidence seems to suggest that they came from the North or North West.
'' An excellent book that you should read is NOAH'S FLOOD by profs William Ryan and Walter Pitman.''
If it's not a 'god' book I'll read it.
''A genuine scientific study gives convincing evidence that the 'Black Sea' was dry land with a large fresh water lake fed by 4 rivers Danube, Don, Dniester, Dnieper. About 5760 BC with rising sea levels The Mediterranean burst through the boshorus and flooded the whole basin.''
Yes I saw a documentary about this some time ago.
''the inhabitants had plenty of time to escape and spread in all direction. By the 3rd generation they could have reached Briton. If sea levels were 300ft lower then there would have been no English Channel as such, the simply walked in.''
I'll have to check this but I'm pretty sure that the English Channel was in force by then..also Britain was inhabited long before then.
No known Jewish connection. What about the Gaelic/Celtic and Gothic languages?
Think it's interesting to note that a large tract of what is now known as Scotland was named Alban or Albania. Mithra
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-16 13:21 ]
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 13:42
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 13:04, mithra wrote:
[
'' An excellent book that you should read is NOAH'S FLOOD by profs William Ryan and Walter Pitman.''
If it's not a 'god' book I'll read it.
Gaelic/Celtic and Gothic languages?
named Alban or Albania. Mithra
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-16 13:21 ]
|
|
Mihra , its not a God book, far from it. The flood was mentioned in Assyrian long before the hebrews got the story. Thi s book is a geological and oceanographic survey of the Med and black sea. plenty of archeaology about the movement of people. Not religious at all. purely based on the assumption that some truth is found in many myths. Ryan & Pitman are profs at Woods Hole institute. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 14:13
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 13:04, mithra wrote:
[quote]
English Channel was in force by then..also Britain was inhabited long before then.
No known Jewish connection. What about the Gaelic/Celtic and Gothic languages?
Think it's interesting to note that a large tract of what is now known as Scotland was named Alban or Albania. Mithra
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-16 13:21 ]
|
|
OK english channel, perhaps Strait of Dover very narrow.
No jewish connection? the phoenicians are said to have traded with Britain ,tin and lead. No known phoenician settlements, date of trade obscure. They may have added to the gene pool though.
welsh language? I'm no linguist, but I know that old mid east languages did not use vowels. a lot of welsh words are simialr in that respect. Scotland was known as Albion. There is also a myth I remember from school days of a land called Lyonese or Lyoness , between Land's End and the Scilly isles, which like Atlantis sank beneath the sea, so sea levels were lower. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 14:13
On 2006-08-16 13:42, rbatham wrote:
''... purely based on the assumption that some truth is found in many myths. Ryan & Pitman are profs at Woods Hole institute.''
O.K. I will try to get hold of it.
Yes I agree that some truth can be found in many myths but ignorance of the tellers/writers at the time must be taken into consideration. For instance what would seem to be a world flood to rather insular people was mearly localised flooding. Nor did they understand what caused earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, thunder & lightning and so on.
So a goodly bit of updated translation is needed!
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 14:22
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 14:13, mithra wrote:
On 2006-08-16 13:42, rbatham wrote:
''... purely based on the assumption that some truth is found in many myths. Ryan & Pitman are profs at Woods Hole institute.''
O.K. I will try to get hold of it.
Yes I agree that some truth can be found in many myths but ignorance of the tellers/writers at the time must be taken into consideration. For instance what would seem to be a world flood to rather insular people was mearly localised flooding. Nor did they understand what caused earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, thunder & lightning and so on.
So a goodly bit of updated translation is needed!
|
|
if you go by the Bible the flood was about 2400 BC, after the pyramids were built. If Ryan & pitman are right with their carbon dating the black sea flood 5760Bc and such a large area it would have seemed like a worldwide flood. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 14:38
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 13:04, mithra wrote:
[quote]
This is something I'm currently working on. Evidence seems to suggest that they came from the North or North West.
Gaelic/Celtic and Gothic languages?
|
|
Northwest? Greenland iceland? still in the grip of the ice age. 5000 yrs ago even worse.
languages came with the celts. the original habitants are unknown so is their language. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 16-08-2006 at 15:27
On 2006-08-16 14:22, rbatham wrote:
''...If Ryan & pitman are right with their carbon dating the black sea flood 5760Bc and such a large area it would have seemed like a worldwide flood.''
Quite, my point entirely - it would've 'seemed' like a worldwide flood to them - but it wasn't!
Greenland was inhabited by Inuit peoples 5,000 years ago. But I'm also looking further afield than that.
Stone-age hunters were in Britain some 12,500 years ago.
Cannot remember whether it was the Picts or the Calledonians who MAY have had their own language previous to Gaelic. Yet to read lastest works on this.
I have a undated copy of a ancient map which clearly shows part of Scotland as 'Albania'! The map is titled 'The Kingdom of Alban' and shows areas where the Scots resided and various other named areas which were later collectively known to be inhabited by 'Picts' by the Romans. Ireland is shown as 'Scotia'- where the Scots came over from. I obtained this map from someone else(reliable)-I will see if she has further information.
As for the Welsh language, I speak it a little and have a few Welsh language books - if you can find some mid-east words I can then see if there are any similarities.
As for Jews and Phoenicians - don't really know where to start!
Jews are a true mixed bunch; better, perhaps, if we take the original claim that they were Hebrews who lived in Palestine. Settlers in Palestine included: Canaanites(Phoenicians), Hebrews, Philistines,Egypians,Assynans,Babylonians,Macedonians,Ptolemaic,
Seleucid,Roman and Byzantines.
(Of course the term 'jew' became to mean a follower of judaism.)
So if we take it that it was just the Hebrews who became followers of Judaism then the Phoenicians don't come under the same banner.
Phoenicia was the ancient Greek name for N.Canaan. The Phoenicians lived from about 1,200 to 332 B.C. They had some trade with Cornwall (tin) - not sure whether this was direct though.
According to my information between 10,000 - 6,000 years ago British sea levels rose at an average rate of 6mm a year. 5,000 to near present day at a rate of 1mm a year. (Now on the increase again, about 2mm a year.) (I hate mm's and cm's!)
Also the land in Northern Britain/Scotland has been rising - recovering from the weight of the ice. Meanwhile Southern Britain has been sinking. Mithra.
I've now completely forgotten what this thread was about! Got a bit carried away I'm afraid!
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-17 00:55 ]
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 17-08-2006 at 05:16
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 15:27, mithra wrote:
.''
I've now completely forgotten what this thread was about! Got a bit carried away I'm afraid!
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-17 00:55 ]
|
|
Ancient genes. Quote from my history book 1866. 'Fairholt (whoever he was) in his 'Costume of England, describes a tumulus that was opened in 1834 on the cliffs of Gristlethorpe near Scarborough. In it was found the body of a man enclosed in a coffin roughly made from the trunk of an oak tree. and was well preserved The skull was most striking from the unusual prominence of the supercilliary arches, the whole aspect was wild and savage.The remains of a bronze dagger flint heads of arrows and a javelin. We may be looking at a SSilurian cheif.
If this material is still extant in some museum (which I doubt, private collectors) it could be Dna tested. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 17-08-2006 at 05:27
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-16 15:27, mithra wrote:
.
So if we take it that it was just the Hebrews who became followers of Judaism then the Phoenicians don't come under the same banner.
Phoenicia was the ancient Greek name for N.Canaan. The Phoenicians lived from about 1,200 to 332 B.C. They had some trade with Cornwall (tin) - not sure whether this was direct though.
Mithra.
|
|
phoenicians were probably Canaanites. phoenicia was greek, I agree ,but Canaanites derived from Canaan, grandson of Noah. so same line as hebrews or jews. Canannites were in the land before Abraham about 2164 BC.
Just because I quote the Bible doesn't mean that I beleive it. I regard it has history and like myths it may have some truth. Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
|
mithra
Joined:
27-06-2006
Messages: 562
OFF-Line
| Posted 17-08-2006 at 13:04
On 2006-08-17 05:16, rbatham wrote:
''...The remains of a bronze dagger flint heads of arrows and a javelin. We may be looking at a SSilurian cheif.''
Sorry but you have completely lost me on this one!
'Silurian' is a period of geological time 438-408 MILLION years ago and this burial at Gristhorpe, by artifacts, obviously bronze age about 2,000-500BC.
Mithra.
Canaanites: (bit of a chicken or egg thing which came first?)
Canaan was 'the promised land' of the Israelites. It was a region between the Med.& Dead Sea, capital Ebla. (The empire inc. Syria, Palestine & part of Mesopotamia.)
My opinion is that it was a already inhabited region first, before being named and that Canaan is simply symbolic and nothing todo with a real person i.e. the land of canaan just means the promised land.
Noah is a greatly exaggerated tale me thinks! As is any tale pertaining to breeding large races from just one man (and woman) which I find totally unrealistic and ridiculous! Mithra.
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-17 15:14 ]
Profile
Reply
|
coldrum
Joined:
17-09-2002
Messages: 780
OFF-Line
| Posted 17-08-2006 at 23:51
An interesting article in the Guardian:
Genetic map reading
DNA research can tell us a great deal about our ancestry - but the jury is still out on its results
target="_new">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1851199,00.html
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART37392.html
[ This message was edited by: coldrum on 2006-08-18 00:17 ]
Profile
Reply
|
rbatham
Joined:
04-04-2006
Messages: 679
from Western Australia
OFF-Line
| Posted 18-08-2006 at 04:20
Quote:
|
On 2006-08-17 13:04, mithra wrote:
On 2006-08-17 05:16, rbatham wrote:
''...The remains of a bronze dagger flint heads of arrows and a javelin. We may be looking at a SSilurian cheif.''
Sorry but you have completely lost me on this one!
'Silurian' is a period of geological time 438-408 MILLION years ago and this burial at Gristhorpe, by artifacts, obviously bronze age about 2,000-500BC.
Mithra.
Canaanites: (bit of a chicken or egg thing which came first?)
Canaan was 'the promised land' of the Israelites. It was a region between the Med.& Dead Sea, capital Ebla. (The empire inc. Syria, Palestine & part of Mesopotamia.)
My opinion is that it was a already inhabited region first, before being named and that Canaan is simply symbolic and nothing todo with a real person i.e. the land of canaan just means the promised land.
Noah is a greatly exaggerated tale me thinks! As is any tale pertaining to breeding large races from just one man (and woman) which I find totally unrealistic and ridiculous! Mithra.
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-08-17 15:14 ]
|
|
I am only quoting from my books. bit of a puzzle though. The Silures was a name given by the romans to tribes in W Eng ,S wales along with th Ordovicians. How a Silurian cheif came to be buried near Scarborough I don't know. But was the grave pre-celtic?
Can't agree with you on Canaan. must have been inhabited soon after Black Sea flood 5760BC. Called land of Canaan long before promised to Abraham. Not suggesting that Noah existed or that one man was responsible for the breeding of a race. however, one couple can produce many in 3 or 4 generations.(don't bring in Fibonacci, please) I have lost count of my 'relations" generated from my Grandparents.
If the Black Sea was dry land it's area was much the same as England and capable of supporting a multi million population. which spread in all directions. regard the bible as memories passed down orally. The 'garden of Eden' shows that agriculture was practised. Cain was a tiller of the soil. Abel was a keeper of sheep and goats. The system of government was Patriarchal, leading to clanship. Note the similarity to Scots and Irish. Mac, or Mc- son of. read between the lines.Roy
Profile
Email
Reply
| |
| Go to Page: 1 | 2 |
|
|
|
|
|
IMPORTANT NOTES: This site uses COOKIES. Please do not use this web site if you do not agree to our Terms and Conditions of use.
If you plan to visit ancient sites in person, please make sure you follow our Charter.
Articles, photographs and comments are the property of their respective authors or contributors, please contact them for permission to reproduce. Site design ©1997-2012 Andy Burnham.
|
Main News