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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Churches built on Prehistoric sites
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Churches built on Prehistoric sites |
mishkin
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from Chelmsford
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|  Posted 06-08-2006 at 18:29
I've read in a book that there is an ancient church dedicated to Justinian at Llanstinan, which sits in an early stone circle - seven springs rise on the site. It was in the village of Scleddau, which seems to have disappeared. This is probably the link on this site;-
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6969
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TheCaptain
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 00:28
Don't forget West Wycombe.
And if you want to count the rest of Europe, you will find hundreds, if not thousands of them. Two of the most blatent are Chapelle-des-Sept-Saints in France, and Pavia in Portugal, but there are too many more to list here.
I think you will find that Christianity, and often whatever other religion came along in the past, just sort of modified and took over the sacred places and structures which had been there before. After all, they didn't want to upset the locals too much, just wanted to bring them into their "new" way of thinking. Same with all the major festivals and celebrations. Mostly all adaptations of those which existed for thousands of years beforehand, but just with new stories to go with them.
And yes, the east/west alignment also. But these arent exact, either in the ancient sites or more modern churches. Apart from one or two "special" places, most are built on a "near enough" basis. Same as things are generally done today, so again, no change there in thousands of years.
[ This message was edited by: TheCaptain on 2006-08-07 00:53 ]
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jasonvaughn
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 09:33
Plus the holy wells - just been out StCybi's well on the Llyn peninsula and that is said to have had pagan origins.
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cropredy
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 10:40
The captain,
Re:- the alignments of east/west.
I promise you that the way the churchs are aligned is absolutely precise, to a tenth of an inch.
In exactly the same way as long barrows are.
On first glance and to all other reasoning, they appear somewhat hap hazard, but they are anything but.
IMO, all the norman churchs I have been to are constructed on or adjacent to much earlier constructions.
They will has you have rightly said have tried to best absorb former beliefs and understandings into the churchs, and many of the carvings show this up well, they must have been the most awe inspiring places when they were built?
And if they replaced a former stone circle, that was not really understood anymore, they will have been welcomed ?
Mithra asked for non of that energy lines stuff, so I won't go into detail, but it is the only way to actually understand them, they were built to such stunning precision and measurements, and I try to imagine what the megaliths would have been and how precise they too would have been thousands of years ago, we only see the remnants now?
Kevin
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Salopian
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 11:44
"I promise you that the way the churchs are aligned is absolutely precise, to a tenth of an inch."
As someone who knows a thing or two about precision surveying I'm mildly curious to know how you can measure the alignment of a fifty yard long church to an accuracy of a tenth of an inch. Which equipment did you use?
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mishkin
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 12:27
I promise you that the way the churchs are aligned is absolutely precise, to a tenth of an inch.
Kevin not quite all - there's a church near me that was probably built on roman foundations, its slightly skewed because of it, I would prefer to think of churches facing roughly e/w because of the practicalities of the site they were built on, and the fact that they were rebuilt over several periods. Also, what about the few churches that were built of wood, not all of them were stone.
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mithra
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 12:52
Thanks again everyone for your postings.
Re East/West alignments, it might also depend if they used a compass for this?
Due to the movement of magnetic North over the years, Mag.North has been as much as 50deg east and 25deg west in recorded history. (Do not know when though) But wouldn't this make a slight difference to the orientation? Depending on when each Church was built?
Or did they wait for one of the equinoxes to see where the sun rose/set before planning alignment build? Mithra.
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Salopian
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 12:55
fascinating article on the subject here Mishkin -
http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/chorien.htm
Some correlating with their sunrise on their saint's days, some with a wandering magnetic pole and the rest... unfathomable.
The Soc of Antiquaries did some research as well, dicounting the magnetic pole theory but finding 42% (wow! that can't be right, surely?) corresponded to the saints' sunrise idea.
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Wiggy
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 13:32
If you get the chance to visit Crete (I got back a few weeks ago, twas lovely) Look for Minoan "Peak Sanctuary" sites - some are now occupied by Orthodox churches. Spectacular settings - you can really see and feel why people have always been attracted to worship there.
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mishkin
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 14:04
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The Soc of Antiquaries did some research as well, dicounting the magnetic pole theory but finding 42% (wow! that can't be right, surely?) corresponded to the saints' sunrise idea.
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Had to go and look this one up in Churches in their Landscape...
Town churches would have probably been fitted into the street plan, and how much land they would be provided with. But some cathedrals were not only rebuilt but reorientated after the Conquest. The theory that churches were commonly aligned towards sunrise on the patronal day is the one most adhered to, but Morris says that it is possible that a desire for greater strictness in orientation arose out of the Benedictine reforms of the 10th C. The Bradshaw article mentions the restriction of topography i.e. if a ridge or hill obscures the sun rising, which I suppose must have added to being slightly out of alignment. Rural churches being poorer, would probably be nearer to their original siting. He mentions that apparently Dunstan is said to have corrected a new church at Mayfield by nudging it with his shoulder...
Churches that are established next to barrows, show early saint evangelism in this area, perhaps I shall have to check my church built on roman foundations with its early naming saint.. so I look up the saints name, note his date, and then check the sunrise on that day??
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Salopian
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 15:09
so I look up the saints name, note his date, and then check the sunrise on that day??
I suppose so. You'd have to view it on site though, to allow for intervening hills etc.
What a fascinating project to get obsessed with.
My local church is All Saints. Not sure which day to go there...
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mithra
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 15:19
Cropredy wrote:
"I promise you that the way the churchs are aligned is absolutely precise, to a tenth of an inch."
What alignments are these which align within fractions of a inch?
Alignments of energies? Alignments to directions on Earth, i.e. N/S, E/W? Celestial alignments? Mithra.
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PeteG
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from Avebury
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 16:04
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My local church is All Saints. Not sure which day to go there...
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November 1st. is All Saints day.
Avebury church was also All Saints before it switched to St James.
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mithra
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 16:56
On 2006-08-07 14:04, mishkin wrote:
''.. so I look up the saints name, note his date, and then check the sunrise on that day??''
Ah, but then you'll have to work out what the sun's declination was and what time it rose on that date - so that you knew exactly on what part of the horizon it rose. That's assuming there's one to be seen! Mithra.
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cropredy
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 18:38
Mithra,
As you asked.
The alignments I detect are with two rods in my hands.
The most frequent of these is north/south and east/west, not compass north, but close.
I use a compass to record these alignments.
There has of course been movement and settlement at churchs, but in general it is amazingly little, I won't go into detail but I consider this is mainly to do with the precise alignment of the building been to a detectable force that has assisted with this .
I find many alignments and they do match the many and varied min/max of many luner bodies.
The lines that compose these are constant and dead straight, and upon carefull measuring are found to be one inch in width, they appear to pass through every object and are present at all height above sea level ( I haven't tried below this?)
They are constant day/night.
They are in groups of nine parallel lines, the overall width of these groups been aprox 200 feet ( I am not going to publish exact dimensions just yet )
They have measurable distances between them, and all measurements will be found to conform to the fibonacci sequence.
The most I have found of these lines crossing in one spot is 55 , most notably on the top of Glastonbury tor.
If you can visualise 55 groups of lines with their centre lines crossing on one precise spot, then you will possibly be able to appreciate the geometric patterns this creates.
The angles of the lines around 360 degrees also matchs the fibonacci sequence, this takes some understanding and baffled me for a long time.
therefore nothing is equal about the resultant patterns, and they will always , but always have four dominant points where a multitude of lines meet at 90 degrees to each other around 360 degrees, I consider this is the basis of the cross, and the swastika, especially the celtic cross, because of the polygons formed by these crossing lines around the centre spot.
These lines appear to form a complete and all embracing matrix system everywhere I try, and I deduce all around the planet, I further deduce that they are actually coming from outside our galaxy and that all other luner bodies will be in alignments formed by the lines and all moving in tandem with each other in these alignment of lines, basically similer to a clock gearing system.
That is the lines, which I deduce as been linear light.
Flowing upon these lines is another detectable light which I deduce is spinning in both directions, left/right.
I have noted a variation in certain aspects of this light which seems to be seasonal.
This light is harder to actually measure and appears to vary in its width, also the two directions of spin appear to flow in opposite directions on top of each other, with the lower flow also varying along a seasonal time frame, normally I have to lower the rods down below at least 18 inch, then they will point in the opposite direction, but this has in spring time almost lowered to ground level.
Where all the linear light lines cross each other, the spinning light appears to be able to jump from line to line, it mainly does this in a spiral formation, starting at the outer polygon around a central spot, and then following a track inwards to the central spot, thus forming a spiral, this occurs many times and starts at each spot where the central line crosses the outer polygon. so if there are say 13 lines crossing there will be 26 points at which spirals start and track their way to the centre.
if you draw this you will get a flower of life type pattern, very closely resembling the sunflower seed formations.
It gets really complicated from then on, and I struggle to verbalise it.
At the east/west and north/south alignment of lines are several duplicate sets of these side by side, this results in rectangles of primerally 34 by 55 inchs , these will be centred along the length and breadth of a church, due to the detectable presence of underground water streams at the spots where the churchs are, inside these rectangles, and because other lines bisect them , there are perfect golden ratio spirals formed, and the light appears to earth down through this underground water.
Remember, in the beginning there was light, that doesn't have to mean light that you can see, there are many lights outside our spectrum of visability.
Kevin
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hamish
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from Bristol
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 20:24
Hi Mithra.
Just got back from Denmark today. Just read your post. There is a Church at Ogbourne St Andrew near Marlbourgh which seems to be built on a raft of Sarsen Stones. Also large stones in the church yard and a Round Barrow in the grounds.
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mithra
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 21:36
Cropredy.
Sorry still unclear, are these alignments Lunar, solar or compass? i.e. the main entrance of your average churches compass bearing would point to where?
Thanks Hamish for your posting.
All of this shows such overwhelming evidence for the christian church nicking our important prehistoric sites! Mithra.
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cropredy
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 21:59
Mithra,
forget the compass, its just a device to show a bearing that moves.
I consider this is why many later churchs are almost collapsing, they were built using a compass, near where I live is a victorian church, it is awfull, they keep shutting it because it is dangerous, bits keep falling down, I have dowsed it, and it is only a few inchs out of alignment, but it is sort of fighting the lines that would otherwise have assisted to maintain it.
The generally accepted view is that the main aisle of the church will be east/west, with the enterance doorway facing south.
Just go into them with a compass and check, there is usually a convienient straight line of something .
Kevin
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mithra
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| Posted 07-08-2006 at 22:13
[quote]
On 2006-08-07 21:59, cropredy wrote:
''The generally accepted view is that the main aisle of the church will be east/west, with the enterance doorway facing south.''
This is confusing! Up northish here all churches I've been in, which isn't alot I grant you!, have their main aisle going from the front door running up to the Altar! Mithra.
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mithra
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| Posted 08-08-2006 at 14:28
Has anyone been to Cold Weston Church near Clee St Margaret, Shrops? O.S. Landranger 137, map ref: SO552829.
Cold Weston is a deserted village dated A.D. 1066 - 1547, nothing to see but mounds now but the Norman Church is still there, surrounded by gravestones.
I went to visit this site some years ago and walked down to the Church. It had a very disturbing atmosphere. The Church had been decommissioned and someone had obviously started to convert it, but had subsequently long given up leaving all tools etc on site. (Looked like sudden abandonment of job.)
I wondered if anyone knew any further details/updates? I cannot find if this Church was built on a older site.
There are other old settlements/churches in area, Heath (Chapel) and Abdon (Church), all are within about 3 miles of Nordy Bank Iron-age Hillfort. Mithra.
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