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Churches built on Prehistoric sites |
mithra
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|  Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:01
I'm looking for definite evidence of Churches being built on previously used ancient sites and would be interested to hear from anyone who knows of one (or more!).
I know of Rudston Church with it's bronze age 25ft monolith in Churchyard. I have also noticed Churches built on mounds and have heard that there are some with obvious standing stones in walls but have no details.
Can anyone help please? (But please no energy line etc. stuff!) Mithra.
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PeteG
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:03
Yatesbury, Alton Priors and Pewsey churchs all have sarsens in their foundations.
Alton Priors has two under the church floor which can be seen via trapdoors,
PeteG
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TimPrevett
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:09
Hi Mithra
Posted under one of my other IDs are these:
Definite: St Mael & St Sulien, Mabe Church, Maen Twrog, Llanwrthwl, and Ysbyty Cynfyn is a possible. How's that for starters?
Cheers
Tim
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TimPrevett
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:14
Clulow Cross and Eliseg's Pillar are both Mercian crosses IIRC built on barrows.
These are the first few that come to mind,
Tim.
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TimPrevett
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:17
Julian Cope goes on about the church of St Mary Magdalen at Cerrigydrudion (meaning the stone of the druid) somewhere in TMA; visited there last year, but could see nothing obvious - other than a sub circular churchyard, some yews, and a church we couldn't get into.
Tim
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TimPrevett
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:24
There is also Llanarmon yn Ial in Denbighshire ? with a circular churchyard. Nothing in the official databases - but Julian says there are standing stones in the wall. A guidebook I have says there is a standing stone in a field very near. One I need to check out myself sometime! (hopefully soon).
Whitcombe in Dorset has a small standing stone on the edge of the Churchyard.
[ This message was edited by: ShropshireTraveller on 2006-08-04 20:26 ]
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Ben_Blackshaw
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:29
La Hougue Bie, I've just visited - a superb chambered tomb in Jersey with a medieval chapel of top of a very large mound. Its so big there's even a Nazi bunker in the mound to boot! (that caused untold damage to the mound)
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mithra
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:51
Thankyou very much Pete,Tim and Ben for your postings. More than I hoped for and more sites than I thought.
Has anyone undertaken a book on the subject? I'm sure it would be a worth-while project? Mithra
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ocifant
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 20:54
St Eval in Cornwall has various stones in the boundary hedge that look suspiciously like the remains of a circle.
What about Knowlton Henge?
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JimChampion
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 21:43
See also Twyford Church in Hampshire, there are references on the site page. Good evidence that its built on a stone circle.
There is also speculation about Brockenhurst Church (also Hampshire) due to its age and circular churchyard. Cope also mentions Toller Porcorum in Dorset which has a raised circular churchyard. There are a pair of stones that were uncovered there, standing next to the gateway.
The church on Knowlton Henge is a blatant one.
{Edit: How could I forget Glastonbury Tor? If it is a prehistoric site, that is.}
Jim
[ This message was edited by: JimChampion on 2006-08-04 21:51 ]
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cropredy
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 21:46
Mithra,
If you would allow me to make a comment?Dont just look for evidence of the church been sited directly upon, but look around outside, especially look south.
Look for so called preachers crosses, many are now war memorials?
Ask why are they aligned east/west?, if they say they are facing jerusalem, tell them to obtain a better compass?
Ask them if you can look into the trap doors either side of the main aisle, they wont let you?
Keep in mind , that the majority were built by an invading force that wanted to rule the masses, they were very clever .
I have good reason to admire those that set out the floor plan, in the precise position that they did, no matter what was there before, they were the victors after all?
Kevin
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penguino
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| Posted 04-08-2006 at 22:18
I would add a couple more in Wales - Gwytherin has standing stones in the churchyard, and Clynog (on the Lleyn peninsular). Clynog is on a pilgrimage route, has a christianised standing stone and holy well and a burial chamber just down the path.
Also worth looking at would be keeils in the Isle of Man, these are very early churches and are mentioned by Cope.
For the most obvious, it would have to be tumulus St Michel in Carnac. Biggest tump I've seen, with a crappy nasty church on top.
sam
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Kieren
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from Sherborne, Dorset
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| Posted 05-08-2006 at 00:35
St. Stephens church in the Roman city of St. Albans has a large standing stone in the graveyard which is also on the corner of the crossroads of the old Watling street (A5) Roman Road which is also a ley line.
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timlangdale
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| Posted 05-08-2006 at 01:30
How about St Michaels, Brentnor built on prehistoric earth works,and I'll hazard a guess that Burrowbridge mumps' St Michaels church has been built upon something older than the original chapel that preceeded it.
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rbatham
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| Posted 05-08-2006 at 13:18
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On 2006-08-04 20:01, mithra wrote:
I'm looking for definite evidence of Churches being built on previously used ancient sites and would be interested to hear from anyone who knows of one (or more!).
I know of Rudston Church with it's bronze age 25ft monolith in Churchyard. I have also noticed Churches built on mounds and have heard that there are some with obvious standing stones in walls but have no details.
Can anyone help please? (But please no energy line etc. stuff!) Mithra.
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I would suspect that most village churches built by the Normans are built on ancient sites. look for churches that are away from the village and on steep hills. One near where I used to live is Bow Brickhill Bucks. it is a mile away from the village and ontop of the steepest hill inthe district. Can' remember if there were any stones there. Not far away is the site of a Danish camp still called Danesborough. Roy
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Ambriel
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| Posted 05-08-2006 at 18:40
Whilst not a church, the wall of the cemetary at Dervaig (Isle of Mull, Scotland) incorporates a Sarsen stone into its structure.
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cropredy
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| Posted 06-08-2006 at 12:00
Mithra,
As most of the churchs and cathedrals are stunning and complex architectural constructions.
You would assume that relevant drawings of their position , layout, alignment, measurement etc, etc, etc, would be available, and of considerable interest?
I am not referring to later floorplan drawings, but origonal drawings.
Their alignment must have been relevant? but to what?
Would you say a compass bearing?
See if you can find any?
Kevin
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mithra
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| Posted 06-08-2006 at 13:07
I would like to thank everyone for their helpful and interesting postings on this.
I shall be looking into and visiting as many sites mentioned as possible.
Kevin good question about the alignment of Churches.
Do you know, or anyone else, if most are in a East/West alignment? i.e. Which direction does the entrance face?
This could mean that they were aligned with the equinoxes rising/setting of Sun?
Something else to look into! Mithra.
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cropredy
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| Posted 06-08-2006 at 16:59
Mithra,
The norman churchs are predominately east/west, along the aisles, with the enterance porch due south, there will often be a door opposite, but they rarely open them now?
Don't just accept them as been east/west though, be carefull and check, they are not always exactly to that alignment?
The sun will normally rise through the rose window, or large windows at the east end.
Look for the romanesque ones, and think circle?
Look into mosques with there MITHRABS, you should be interested in these small circuler offshoots?
Google Abbot suger, try to understand that gothic architecture is based on circles.
The circles on the ground were lifted to the heavens?
I have been to so many of these places I am sick of them and their locked doors, they may lock me out, but I don't need to see in or under them, because I can
, in fact I can see right through them?
Kevin
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bat400
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| Posted 06-08-2006 at 17:12
Of only slight connection:
It was not unusual in early America in the Midwest to put historic, "European" cemetaries near the site of a prehistoric mound. The time white settlers moved into the Great Lake states (1820-1840) was the height of the "Mound Builder" Myth. (The idea that the mounds were not built by the ancestors of the native people the Europeans found, but instead on an unknown ancient race - Giants, Irish, Tolecs, or, better yet, Giant Irish Toltecs.)
So even without a unbroken connection of "locals" feeling that a site was sacred, it still had an affinity of purpose - as a burial place. A spot of repose.
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