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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> oldest stone circle - at Carrowmore?
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oldest stone circle - at Carrowmore? |
mithra
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|  Posted 27-07-2006 at 00:12
Does anyone know which is the oldest stone circle?
The extensive site at Carrowmore Co. Sligo, Ireland shows a steady development from passage-tomb to boulder-circle to stone-circle.
Four boulder circles were excavated in 1977 & 79, radiocarbon dates from three averaged 3043 B.C. - which in real years is sometime between 3900 to 3650 B.C.. Either date is very early for stone circles in Britain and Ireland. ( This is from Aubrey Burl 'Circles of Stone')
Does this mean that there are older circles abroad? Mithra.
Ah! Is this posting boring? Is there anyone out there that can possibly confirm the oldest stone circle? Or oldest tomb? I'd dearly love to know please! Mithra.
[ This message was edited by: mithra on 2006-07-27 20:01 ]
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henvell
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| Posted 27-07-2006 at 20:15
One of the megalith burials at Carrowmore ihas been dated to 5800BCE [calibrated],which is very close to the end of the mini-ice age in Nw Europe.There are 2 other interments dated prior to 5500 BCE.However the association between the charcoal samples and the burials are equivocal.Recent age estimates from Ireland should be viewed with caution.The alternative is that the dates are correct and the origins of megaliths along the Atlantic fringe originate is Ireland,which is difficult to rationalize.
Their is a cist burial with an overlying stone cairn and relatively [for the era] elaborate grave goods on the coast of Labrador in Canada,which definately dates to circa 5650 BCE [cal].There is a lot that is unknown about the origins of megaliths and possibily some of these anomalies hold the key.
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mithra
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| Posted 27-07-2006 at 20:24
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On 2006-07-27 20:15, henvell wrote:
One of the megalith burials at Carrowmore ihas been dated to 5800BCE [calibrated],which is very close to the end of the mini-ice age in Nw Europe.There are 2 other interments dated prior to 5500 BCE.However the association between the charcoal samples and the burials are equivocal.Recent age estimates from Ireland should be viewed with caution.The alternative is that the dates are correct and the origins of megaliths along the Atlantic fringe originate is Ireland,which is difficult to rationalize.
Their is a cist burial with an overlying stone cairn and relatively [for the era] elaborate grave goods on the coast of Labrador in Canada,which definately dates to circa 5650 BCE [cal].There is a lot that is unknown about the origins of megaliths and possibily some of these anomalies hold the key.
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Thanks for this posting Henvell, interesting and much appreciated. Ta, Mithra.
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Salopian
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| Posted 27-07-2006 at 21:46
Are we allowed caverns?
Cresswell Crags, rock art, 12,800 years...
Kents Cavern, jawbone, 37,000.....
Any more?
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mithra
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| Posted 28-07-2006 at 17:38
[quote]
On 2006-07-27 21:46, Salopian wrote:
Are we allowed caverns?
What I'm trying to establish is the possibility that the stone circle builders came from the North or North West.
If we also take it that these were the same people who build passage tombs and boulder circles - trouble is, what did they do before that? Or were these 'new' tribes?
I think that just knowing the date of the oldest tomb will have to do on this front but I see no reason why we cannot look into cave dwellers etc as well. Mithra
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henvell
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| Posted 11-08-2010 at 05:28
The discovery of the remains of a circular dwelling [ca or before
8500 bc],a split,hewn wood platform and a multitude of cultural
artifacts beneath a peat seal at the extinct lacustrine Star Carr site in
Yorkshire,England,indicates that hunter-gatherers frequented the
locale,seasonally [?] after the Younger Dryas for 200-500 years,
when England was joined to continental Europe.The tradition of
congregating for a considerable period of time at a site,which was
endowed with an abundance of terrestrial and aquatic resources
seems to have been a tradition that commenced in the early
Mesolithic.These meetings could have provided conducive
environments for the evolution of ritual practices and the
cooperative construction of wooden ceremonial structures [eg:
Carrowmore and Stonehenge],which were the precursors of the
megaliths.Mesolithic social gatherings may have been the
fore-runners of the Bronze Age work parties and feast days at
numerous megalith sites in Britain and Ireland.
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cerrig
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| Posted 12-08-2010 at 01:59
What is meant by " the evolution of ritual practises", and is there any evidence that these practises evolved forwards in time, or could they have degenerated instead.
Given that the evidence for said practises is forensic in nature, and the practises themselves had disappeared by the time of the Romans, it would seem just as likely that any rituals were older than any remains, and hence any settlements and monuments could have been developed simply to accomodate already existing ritual needs. Rather than the idea that people move around looking for food/shelter etc. , they could have been looking for suitable sites for their rituals.
Just a thought, but it seems that the general theory of people spreading from Africa, because of a growing population needing more room, although a reasonable and seemingly irrefutable theory, is only a theory after all. It shouldn't be the only way to think about human history. Things could well have been different.
The megalith builders and their predecessors could even have been rebuilding a network of sites that had previously existed before the ice ages.
Settlement for it's own sake , although a driving force for more recent human history, isn't automatically the only reason for the spread of humans. But it seems no other possibility is ever considered.
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RSleepy
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| Posted 15-03-2012 at 13:02
re Oldest stone circle - does this count? Göbekli Tepe - an astonishing site!
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BERNARDQUATERMASS
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|  Posted 20-03-2012 at 10:36
...Nice one RSleepy...
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Elijah
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| Posted 23-03-2012 at 13:19
Hi, I'm a newbie here but I would like to take this conversation a little further if I may, by suggesting that it was the ritual activity of the Natufeans (the builders of G-Tepe) that was responsible for the spread of these megalithic structures. Anthropologists have acknowledged that it was this ritual activity that provided the initial trigger for their sedation. Indeed, several anthropologists have questioned the long-established Neolithic-revolution (i.e. the agricultural revolution) theory. I believe one has even suggested that Innovations in husbandry and agriculture came about in order to service this ritual activity; and by extension its sedentary practitioners. The picture they paint of this early period is one of farmsteads spreading outwards from the Fertile Crescents, however I would suggest that the evidence could equally shows the spread of a ritual-revolution with its need for megalithic structures.
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sem
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| Posted 24-03-2012 at 01:09
Hi Elijah
It's a question that has been raised a few times and no doubt will be discussed in the future.
Personally I prefer the chicken and egg question, as the answer is obvious - to cross the road of course!
Enjoy MegP.
Sem
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Elijah
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|  Posted 24-03-2012 at 08:43
Hi Sem
I take your point about the chicken and egg but I believe my research resolves the problem. Unfortunately, it's an outside-of-the-box solution, but the evidence is pretty compelling. Which is why I'm testing the waters with a forthcoming website and chats on specialist forums like this that are at the coal-face, where I can challenge anthropological thinking in this area 
John
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Runemage
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| Posted 24-03-2012 at 17:02
Hi Elijah and welcome.
Have you seen the Ness of Brodgar very recent discoveries at all, it seems to be a vast ritual complex and one line of thought is that the Neolithic civilisation which created the monuments flourished in Orkney first before it spread to the south of England.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=17401
Have a look at the comments below the maps as they give further links to the whole fascinating story.
Sem,
Somewhere out there, a neurotic chicken wants to cross the road but is paralysed by the knowledge that everyone will question his motives.
Rune
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Elijah
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| Posted 25-03-2012 at 12:47
Hi Rune
Yes, I caught that episode of the History of Ancient Britain, looks a fascinating place. Never got up to Orkney myself, but its concentration of megaliths is certainly impressive.
Its impossible not to notice the coastal spread of megaliths; headlands and islands being the focus for the bulk of this activity. I had heard it suggested that Britain's megaliths originated from the North, but I don't thing this would negate a Westerly spreading ritual revolution from the Levant.
If asked to speculate on the means by which it spread I would suggest that this new spirituality and its megalithic practices was transmitted by fervent shaman's moving between the pockets of marine hunter-gatherers who had already begun to settle around the coastline of Europe as the climate warmed. These small marine settlements would have communicated and traded with each other and so would have quickly attracting and spread these prophets and their message around the coastline of Europe, from where it slowly spread inland.
I just know that someones going to come up with a megalithic example that counters this scenario... 
John
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sem
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| Posted 25-03-2012 at 16:53
Elijah
David Lewis-Williams' books "The Mind in the Cave" and "Inside the Neolithic Mind" suggest something similar, that the location dictates the monuments.
It has also been suggested that, given the narrow latitude between the Levant and Western Europe, crops grown in the near-east were transportable and able to survive to the West.
Interesting stuff, keep searching.
Sem
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Elijah
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| Posted 25-03-2012 at 20:27
Sem
Yes I've read "Inside the Neolithic Mind". Just picked it off the bookshelf and thumbed through my notes and found where I underscored the remark "special places in the landscape". Have you read Pierre Mereoux's (hope the spellings right) book on his work at Carnac. I have a link somewhere to an English translation if you would like it. I believe his measurement of geomagnetic micropulsation activity at Carnac should be checked for at other megalithic locations, especially at dawn and dusk.
BTW, you wouldn't happen to know if anyone has made a connection between recumbent stone altars and barrows?
John
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Elijah
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| Posted 25-03-2012 at 20:42
Sem
Found that link to the Pierre Meraux translation. Some, if not most of you, will have read it I'm sure, but for those that haven't his discoveries are intriguing, and this translation does contain some interesting photos and maps, etc.
http://www.neara.org/ROS/roscarnac01.htm
John
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HernetheHunter
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| Posted 26-03-2012 at 00:17
Quote:
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On 2012-03-25 12:47, Elijah wrote:
Hi Rune
Snip
If asked to speculate on the means by which it spread I would suggest that this new spirituality and its megalithic practices was transmitted by fervent shaman's moving between the pockets of marine hunter-gatherers who had already begun to settle around the coastline of Europe as the climate warmed. These small marine settlements would have communicated and traded with each other and so would have quickly attracting and spread these prophets and their message around the coastline of Europe, from where it slowly spread inland.
I just know that someones going to come up with a megalithic example that counters this scenario...
John
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Hi Elijah,
The traditions behind the building of the stone structures have been mostly lost in the currently approved and orthodox account of what passes for history. To another degree also, the idea of 'shamans' as a sort of trance-addled priesthood may have well muddied the waters, as much of these ideas are simply inventions of more recent supposed versions of what the purpose of these structures were about. It's quite surprising how much this kind of unfounded thinking can be found presented as though it were fact, even in documentaries by National Geographic, and in visitor centres such as Newgrange/Boyne Valley, where commentators speculate on and subliminally propagate such ideas and notions of 'religious' ritual being performed, despite any actual evidence. None of these sites, as far as I know, have any deistic idols or images on them (apart from those where Christian crosses have been built on top of them in more recent times)
I live in an area in North West Ireland, where these structures dot the landscape, and where the tendency to respect these places more or less comes with the farming tradition. Some of the older generation refer to these dolmen-type structures as 'way stones' or 'way markers', and that they were placed there by the ancestors as they moved to and lived within these areas. Also, an older term used for the more now commonly known ring-forts is 'Danish forts', though they have nothing to do with Danes, which would be an obvious thing to think, and seem to go back to much earlier times, to the Danoi or Dan peoples, who appear to have been expert seafarers who had origins in the Levant and eastern end of the Mediterranean.
I've noted the similarity of alignment of many dolmens from the Algarve to Catalunya, to Sligo and neighbouring counties, and that many of them have capstones with a distinct line of magnetic fields running along them when you check them with a compass. This would infer some knowledge of the physical effects of magnetism (and thus the ability to navigate/plot direction) and obviously the scientific minds to build such markers in a way as to preserve them for nigh on 5000 years in many cases. This suggests, to me at least, that knowledge, and not belief, primarily motivated these constructions, but that the prevalence in the more recent growth of what we might generally call 'religion', as a belief system involving 'power' may be now tainting a clearer perception of what the motives behind the stone structures once were. Just a thought. H
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Runemage
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| Posted 26-03-2012 at 00:59
Hi Herne and welcome,
I've noted the similarity of alignment of many dolmens from the Algarve to Catalunya, to Sligo and neighbouring counties, and that many of them have capstones with a distinct line of magnetic fields running along them when you check them with a compass.
Sounds interesting and it's new - to me at least. Is it something we can all try, could you give us a 'how-to' please?
Rune
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Elijah
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| Posted 26-03-2012 at 05:20
Hi H
Quote:
| It's quite surprising how much this kind of unfounded thinking can be found presented as though it were fact, even in documentaries by National Geographic, and in visitor centres such as Newgrange/Boyne Valley, where commentators speculate on and subliminally propagate such ideas and notions of 'religious' ritual being performed, despite any actual evidence. |
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I couldn't agree more.
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| None of these sites, as far as I know, have any deistic idols or images on them |
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The phrase "ancestor worship" springs to mind here. I'm convinced that this was a precursor religion (if I may use that term) to divine worship. I do believe that state-religion proper arose with the first city-states of Mesopotamia.
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| I've noted the similarity of alignment of many dolmens from the Algarve to Catalunya, to Sligo and neighbouring counties, and that many of them have capstones with a distinct line of magnetic fields running along them when you check them with a compass. |
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You didn't record the directions of these alignments by any chance? As you probably know, Paul Devereux's Dragon Project reports remark upon quite a lot of low level magnetic activity at megaliths, but interference was a major problem. My own work on ancient ritual activity (a forty year old recreational pursuit) would suggest that the level of geomagnetic micropulsation activity at these sites was the determining factor in their location. Note that micropulsations are ULF waves induced in the magnetic field lines, not only by solar activity, but also by earthquake activity, and don't forget that the earths magnetic field was much stronger back then.
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| This would infer some knowledge of the physical effects of magnetism (and thus the ability to navigate/plot direction) and obviously the scientific minds to build such markers in a way as to preserve them for nigh on 5000 years in many cases. |
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I don't believe ancient people would have needed to have direct knowledge of the earths magnetic field, but their ritual activity would, I believe, have occasionally highlighted the influence of these micropulsations, especially at dawn and dusk and when earthquakes struck.
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| this suggests, to me at least, that knowledge, and not belief, primarily motivated these constructions, |
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I really do think the evidence suggests otherwise. To see what I mean you would have to read through masses of ancient religious texts in order to get a sense of the spiritual importance of these sacred sites. The Bible is a good starting point, especially the Old Testaments that deal with the lives of Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Kings David and his son Solomon, and even that of Jesus, to name but a few individuals.
You can get a sense of where I'm coming from in an article I wrote a few years ago for Andrew Gough's Arcadia website. A work with the grandiose title "The Secret Origins of Religion and Civilization" - http://andrewgough.co.uk/secretorigins.html
John
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