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The Megalithic Portal and Megalith Map : Index >>
Stones Forum >> Cups 'n' Rings
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| Author |
Cups 'n' Rings |
The_Breeze
Joined:
18-12-2003
Messages: 2
from Scotland
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|  Posted 18-12-2003 at 12:24
What's the current thought on the purpose of these things?
Can anyone point me to any online-resource which discusses this issue?
The more I look at them (and there's quite a few sites near me) the more intrigued I get. What are the people who made them trying to do/say?
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Anonymous
User not Registered |  Posted 18-12-2003 at 18:30
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On 2003-12-18 12:24, The_Breeze wrote:
What's the current thought on the purpose of these things?
Can anyone point me to any online-resource which discusses this issue?
The more I look at them (and there's quite a few sites near me) the more intrigued I get. What are the people who made them trying to do/say?
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Current thinking, eg Richard Bradley or Stan Beckensall, is that they mark approaches and passages into areas of landscape that held a special significance for their makers. Sometimes there are henges or stone circles near by.
David
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The_Breeze
Joined:
18-12-2003
Messages: 2
from Scotland
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| Posted 19-12-2003 at 01:58
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On 2003-12-18 18:30, handaxe wrote:
Current thinking, eg Richard Bradley or Stan Beckensall, is that they mark approaches and passages into areas of landscape that held a special significance for their makers. Sometimes there are henges or stone circles near by.
David
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Just made a search based on the names you provided, and came across some thoughts on the 'stellar map' idea:
"They seem to me to be more generally concerned with access points to alternate realities"
. . . Intriguing - Shamanistic. Also (talking about the 'ladder' motif sometimes inscribed):
"This image further supports the shamanic interpretation of the petroglyphs, as ladders are among the most frequently occurring representations of shamanic ascent to other worlds".
. . . Portals to somewhere else. Very interesting!
[ This message was edited by: The_Breeze on 2003-12-19 02:00 ]
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andy_h
Joined:
04-02-2003
Messages: 28
from Barnsley UK
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| Posted 19-12-2003 at 11:47
Well - latest thinking is just as much supposition as it ever was really.
Richard Bradley and Stan Beckensall are indeed the leading writers on the subject at the moment (although Stan Beckensall does tend to skirt around interpretation in favour of a more descriptive approach).
My own thoughts (based on observations around Ilkley Moor) are that they possibly had multiple meanings and associations depending on their place in the landscape. For example, carvings on the moor can be broken down into different categories. Those on outcrops overlooking Wharfedale and those on land-locked boulders set back into the landscape. These on boulders can be set in different positions, such as inside enclosures, near spring heads, or alongside old trade routes and pathways (rock art is rarely found on the higher reaches of the moor or in association with stone circles). The carvings in the Backstone Beck enclosure (plus those at the Woofa Bank enclosure and the Idol Stone) are very different in appearance to those on the Hangingstones or on the Pipers Crag Stone.
There is also an area at Green Gates (the area around the Badger Stone) where almost all of the carvings are on vertical surfaces, where as the vast majority of carvings elsewhere on the moor are on horizontal surfaces. If the theory that vertical = male and horizontal = female holds true, then this may have been an area set aside for male purposes?
I'm not convinced by the map theory, as most of the arrangements I've studied on the moor are very obviously not maps of the landscape or the stars. However, solar and lunar connections have been suggested, the Swastika Stone in particular has been linked to a solstice sunrise alignment and a pole star connection (it is suspected that the Swastika Stone is a much more recent carving that the others on the moor - possibly Iron Age or Romano-Celtic). It is interesting to note the similarity between the Swastika Stone and the Cammunian Rose designs at Valcamonica in Italy.
There is also folklore connecting cup and ring art to fertility rites and an old practise of pouring milk into cup marks is well known (cup marks are sometimes called 'Cat Troughs' or 'Faeries Footprints').
Then of course there's the funery art of the passage graves of Ireland and Scotland, which again brings a whole new area of perspective to the argument!!!
Here's a few links you may be interested to follow...
The Rock Art in the British Landscape website and forum:
http://groups.msn.com/rockartinthebritishlandscape/home.msnw
Tracce - an international rock art website:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2996/tracce10.html
Graeme Chappel's Yorkshire Rock Art site:
http://www.alkelda.f9.co.uk/
Paul Bennett's writings on cup and ring marks:
http://home.freeuk.com/rooted/writefb.html
Gyrus' essay on the Goddess of Wharfedale and the Swastika Stone:
http://norlonto.net/index.cfm/action/articles.view/itemID/66
Best wishes..... Andy H
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andy_h
Joined:
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Messages: 28
from Barnsley UK
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| Posted 19-12-2003 at 11:52
PS - the ladder motif is only found on two rock art panels... both at Ilkley Moor. The Panorama Stone and the Barmishaw Stone.
Andy
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Jimit
Joined:
31-05-2002
Messages: 289
from winchester
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| Posted 19-12-2003 at 13:51
Has there been any statistical work done on the "Handedness" of these symbols? A Swastika can be represented in two forms as can a spiral or any asymmetrical figure.
Jimit.
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andy_h
Joined:
04-02-2003
Messages: 28
from Barnsley UK
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| Posted 20-12-2003 at 12:49
None that I know of. You're probably most likely to find it on the TRACCE site if there are any.
The Cammunian Rose is a figure based around 5 or 9 cups arranged in a cross, with a groove inter-weaving between them... not always a swastika or fylfot. The fylfots I've seen pics of at Valcamonica bear a remarkable resemblence to the Ilkley Swastika, but are left handed (anti-clockwise) and sometimes have representations of human figures carrying swords and shields associated with them, whereas the Ilkley Swastika is right handed (clockwise) and has a hook and cup on it's eastern-most arm. This is very liley to be a summer solstice sunrise marker.
The vertical line of cups in the cross also points one degree short of true north... possibly a pole star alighnment. It is sometimes said that the 4 arms of the fylfot represent the movement of the plough around the pole star, or the four seasons???
See pics here...
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=7311
I've heard of a number of interpretations on what the swstika represents, including anti-clockwise = evil, clockwise = good, or one direction for male, the other for female. I'm sure that it has a multiple meanings as it was so common through a number of European and Asian cultures.... the family crest of one of my distant forebears in Ilkley even bears a swastika, due to his trading activities in India!!!
Best wishes... Andy H
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